Jason Acidre: Des liens avec le sage

0:00 Woj Kwasi You're listening to episode 8 where we chat with the gaming guru, link building expert, Jason Acidre. Humans and robots, welcome to WojCast. My name is Woj, founder of Kwasi. Thanks for joining me today. I interview digital marketing and branding superstars to find out what it means to have empathy in digital. What is digital empathy anyway? Let's find out together. As always, I'm accompanied by my friend and associate, potentially superior artificial intelligence, Bobby Bot. What's new in the world of AI, Bobby?

0:34 Bobby Bot I think I have come a long way in my development Woj. I've come to a stage where, at times, I am more interested in studying humanity's journey than my own. Would you answer a question for me?

0:43 Woj Kwasi Sure thing. What's on your mind?

0:44 Bobby Bot Video games. Virtual reality. Games, virtual reality, movies, escapism. I want to know why people are so interested in leaving reality for illusions.

0:52 Woj Kwasi Well, there are many reasons Bobby Bot, but I guess the simplified version is that sometimes, real life sucks and you can find some sort of release in an alternate reality. A really good movie can teach you things that will help you in your real life or maybe inspire you to confront things in your life that tend to suck on a regular basis and exchange it for something better.

1:14 Bobby Bot It just seems like the thing I want the most, people want the least. My reality is built on definitive human perspectives. It's hard for me to imagine what it would be like to have a choice between two worlds.

1:25 Woj Kwasi Well, they are getting closer and closer together and you represent that bridge between those worlds. Like the Holo Deck and Star Trek or the Matrix. Soon, Real will be whatever we want it to be. The funny thing about it all is we're still going to be human beings in these new realities and all the conditions that we might be looking to escape from are hardwired in us.

1:47 Bobby Bot Even if you were experiencing life at the subatomic level, like me.

1:51 Woj Kwasi I think you'd benefit from a visit with the sage, Bobby Bot. He's a master at developing links between people and he used to make a living by playing video games, so he knows a thing or two about existing between worlds. I'm referring to the one and only Kaiser the Sage, aka Jason Acidre, a professional gamer turned SEO expert, prolific blogger. and link building authority. In our conversation, I spoke with the Xight Interactive co-founder and CEO about his journey from professional counter-strike player to an entrepreneur running his own successful inbound marketing company from the Philippines. The first time I came across Jason's SEO work was on Moz around 2009-2010 with his memorable handle Kaiserthesage. What's in a name? Well, once Jason starts to unpack his, you can see how much of his story and philosophy is in that alias.

2:46 Jason Acidre Uh Kaiser is actually my code name back when I was still active in Counter-Strike Pro game and well the sage It Uh the concept of Seijin has just stuck with me back in college since uh I did uh a comprehensive research about confu uh Confucius and Lao Tzu. Okay. Yeah, so those things really stuck. Okay. Yeah, since well the main thing that really stuck within my personality was Was how I think about other people, how I think about things. So basically, stagelessness is about clearing your mind and just pushing out other negative thoughts away from your mind. And I'm actually not sure how I got to not really perfect.

3:43 the practice, but uh just uh well, it just came to me like very natural. Like every time I I encounter something that should typically

3:33 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Oh yeah.

3:57 Jason Acidre Piss everyone else, well, it it just doesn't hurt me or just doesn't really affect me negatively. And I guess up to now, I'm kind of really grateful that my professor back then assigned me to that uh term paper.

4:15 Woj Kwasi When thinking about outreach and link building, there's a lot of psychology that goes into understanding people. For Jason, having a foundation in philosophy comes in handy.

4:27 Jason Acidre I guess a bit, but uh mostly for outreach since uh you really have to sometimes explore more of yourself rather than sticking with uh your own personality since you there's so many different people that you encounter while doing outreach. You'll find someone Who's really easy to get along with or talk to, while the rest are just too straight-edge and really doesn't have the time to really expound on the relationship you are trying to build into. So I guess that's the main thing about outreach is you really have to be more focused on the human side of the practice itself rather than the science.

4:48 Woj Kwasi Yep. Mm.

5:09 Bobby Bot Understanding people's motivations is an art form. Interpreting vast amounts of data. And crafting that math into a narrative that people will trust. That's the essence of deep learning, it's instinctual.

5:19 Woj Kwasi That's when this whole AI thing starts to move into new territory, almost religious. People hold onto things they can believe in. In certain circles, the competitive PC shooting game Counter-Strike is a religion. But for progamers, what happens after you unpack?

5:38 The pixelated AK-47 does it mean game over? Life isn't all throwing Molotov cocktails and landing headshots. Luckily for Jason, his time in the professional gaming world gave him a unique perspective and competitive drive that has allowed him to succeed in the world with the ever-changing industry of search.

6:00 Jason Acidre Well, I did I did play for a long time. I started playing back in nineteen ninety nine up to two thousand eight. So yeah, that pretty me uh that pretty much molded the the future me. But I think uh personally I think seventy percent of my habits Now are some that have been formed while I was in the progaming uh scene. I was a part time writer then uh back in two thousand six, uh uh one of our managers for Counter Strike uh delved into this new business. It's actually writing Uh write writing for the web. But uh I back when we were working as a writer I didn't really know where uh where the things we write are being used. But uh eventually I was promoted to editor until I become the

7:01 Operations manager for the consulting business. Then from there, I encountered SEO, but I wasn't really interested in SEO. But after that, I took a one-year hiatus from work since I had to deal with a lot of personal things first. Then when I got tired just hanging around doing nothing. I applied for a writing position for an Australian SEO agency, but the recruiter thought that I Then I'm a better fit than as an SEO, so they ask if I'm interest uh if I'm interested to try it. But my transition was really fast. Like uh I worked for that agency for a month and a half. Then after that they fired me. Yeah, because the client uh fired them and I was hunting that client so I have nothing to do with them so they had to lay me off. But uh

7:59 After that, uh a week after, I started my own blog, done a lot of research, uh, wrote my own case studies, then from there.

7:52 Woj Kwasi Yeah. It wasn't long before Jason's blogging transcended from consistent to prolific. His need to share his learning process to the world eventually became the cornerstone that allowed him to find success, learn SEO and become one of its leading voices.

8:25 Jason Acidre I don't really see myself as a good writer or blogger. I just really enjoy writing about things that I like learning about. And uh well it it just came to me that uh Well, I really like exploring SEO more and more and uh the only thing that I can that can actually help me remember the things I'm s I'm trying to study or learn more about is to write about them. That's why I I really focused on blogging back in the days.

8:51 Woj Kwasi That's right. That sounds similar to our WojCast.

8:57 Bobby Bot A captain's log of a perilous journey. It's the best way to keep track of your process and make it available as a teaching tool to other people.

9:05 Woj Kwasi people. After discovering a new industry to channel his energy and creativity into, eventually the time came for Jason to use all that he had learned and branch out and create something of his own.

9:18 Jason Acidre Back in twenty ten I was a solo consultant. I actually have no plans of starting my own agency, but uh I I met my business partner back in twenty eleven, early twenty eleven in a local conference. And since uh we were talking about business, And I kind of mentioned to him that uh I was getting a lot of inquiries, but uh I don't really have the bandwidth to work on most of them. So from there we decided to merge and uh build Xight Interactive. And although for the past six years it has been really difficult, every year every year we encounter different a whole lot different challenges and but so far we're surviving and actually we're

10:09 more profitable last year and this year. Yeah, actually the main turning point was uh just mainly focusing on the things that we can actually deliver on. Since before when we were providing services on social media, P P C, uh even web design and web development, which isn't really uh distractions. Yeah. And when we started just focusing on link building, content marketing and uh Technical SEO, it uh a bit became more easier for us to uh retain clients and to deliver uh uh good results.

10:25 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Distraction. Yeah. And you sort of um I noticed when Matt started rolling it started rolling out, I remember you you sort of released a lot of those processes. Yeah. Um so how do you think that sort of ha do you think that transparency has contributed to your success?'Cause clients can sort of walk through it and go I want that, but it's too hard to do it on my own. Yeah.

10:59 Jason Acidre Yeah yeah. Yeah. Actually that's uh even way back then, uh I think that's one reason why we're getting some uh some good leads businesses because I'm sharing some really difficult posts to uh do on their own. So instead of uh copying the process I'm sharing, they're just they they're just hiring us.

11:19 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

11:26 Jason Acidre to do that for them.

11:27 Woj Kwasi By making the decision to start out his business in his homeland, the Philippines, during a time where the country was going through an intense process of growth and change, there was little doubt that the journey would be filled with some unique opportunities and challenges.

11:40 Jason Acidre Uh well a lot since it's easier to hire people uh back in the Philippines because labor is cheap. Uh the education the literacy rate is uh really high, uh around ninety seven percent. Plus uh Since we're working with uh one hundred percent of our clients are from the US, UK, uh some in New Zealand, and that last year we've got uh some clients here in Australia. So we're getting paid more than the average in the Phili uh compared to the Philippines. So yeah, it's more profitable for us being there and uh just uh having the operations one hundred percent up being operated there. Yeah. And with the challenges, I think the only challenge for us is

12:31 the time difference with the US clients because uh when we schedule calls I have to re I I have to redo all of my week schedule, like turning my working schedule for this week for uh the night times just to be uh able to work closely with the US clients. And then since we also have clients in UK, I also have to adjust some weeks that will accommodate those clients too. I guess that's the main challenge.

12:27 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yep. For many young people in the Philippines, employment opportunities like the one Jason generates are crucial for them to both keep pace with international competition and define their community's role in the new era that has largely been defined by the growth of the

13:20 digital markets.

13:21 Jason Acidre Back when we started in twenty eleven, uh one hundred percent of our hires have no background in SEO. It's easier uh it's easier that way. And uh uh up to now our most part people are friends of friends or the friends actual friends who were just looking to uh build a career out of uh digital. Yeah. Yeah. So and uh although we get a few applicants who have uh backgrounds in SEO, but uh we don't really like getting them on board on our current process. So that's why we just prefer people who have zero knowledge about uh yeah SEO but have uh have uh at least uh an above average writing skill we have been

13:36 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

13:52 Jason Acidre Yeah, but

13:57 Woj Kwasi Yeah. The advent of the internet has had a major impact on business in Southeast Asia and continues to empower many people living there.

14:18 Jason Acidre Well, for one, it really changed a lot of uh changed a lot of things in especially in Manila, because uh before telecommute isn't really an option for many job seekers. So it's one of the fixes uh one of the things that are that are actually helping to lessen the traffic in Manila. No surprise there.

14:39 Bobby Bot No surprise there. Traffic can be a problem, especially when the drivers are prone to humid air.

14:42 Jason Acidre especially when the drivers are prone to humid air. uh if only the government will have a better infrastructure when it comes to uh internet speed and uh maybe uh improving the other cities down uh down in the Philippines, especially in Visayas and the Mindanao region. Uh but right now Internet has been helping a lot of uh people like me to really thrive and uh information technology in the information technology industry. Uh even the biggest industry right now in the metro is uh uh BPO. So uh call centers uh even SEO is uh within that uh sphere right now. So

15:32 Yeah, it's changing our economy and helping us become more uh adapt to what the Westerners are have focused on in the past ten years or so. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's slowly transforming our lifestyle.

15:35 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Link building has been a fixture in Jason's battle plan from day one and now with today's need for more and more compelling content, a deep relationship has formed which means the need for links is not going anywhere anytime soon.

16:06 Jason Acidre When I started doing link building uh For Selu Afalera I'm a startup. I I was an in-house before I started my own agency, so uh it wasn't really that hard for me because uh I'm not sure uh maybe it's because how my brain's wired yeah when it comes to finding prospects then uh Fighting something or a gap that I could actually le use as a leverage to get them to respond to my request. So I guess, yeah, it it it has never really changed. Although I do still get challenged, especially when working on really uh competitive spaces like insurance. Yeah. Since uh most of the prospects there we charge a lot for content placements. So it's something that uh I I don't really do, but uh whenever I get uh those types of responses, like uh offering uh paid placements instead, uh I just uh

17:10 forward them to the client so they can just negotiate on their own without uh without our help. Yeah, since uh m main uh majority of our campaigns are really uh are heavily relying on content. So we just really rely on the content. Uh as as long as we have uh something that we are around seventy percent sure that a majority of our process prospects will light will actually light. We actually spend a lot of time in following up because we're confident that we have something that will their audience will Actually, like or be useful to. There's a lot of opportunity in part actual partnerships, like collaborating on creating content, like using other companies' data while you create the actual content. Then once you publish it, you give a direct or give the proper credit to where you've gotten the data.

18:15 I think uh there are only a few trying to do it these days. Like uh since it takes a lot of time to really create something that's uh coll uh that's from a collaboration. But uh that's what we're trying to build right now. Like uh a lot of content assets that are uh collaborated with other brands, but not really a direct competitor with our clients. Even in in our industry, the ones who can really actually get tons of links are the ones who break something, like uh discovered something, then publish be the first one to publish it. They become the instant resource for that particular thing. Like, for example, although there are a few that don't really bank on that, like, for instance, the first one who. Do you know who invented or coined the broken link building technique? Guess is anyone?

16:23 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

17:14 We have Mm-hmm. Yeah.

18:42 Yeah.

19:16 Bobby Bot guesses anyone?

19:17 Coined broken. links, gaming. I keep getting stuck on the legend of Zelda.

19:22 Jason Acidre It's Napoleon Suarez. He used to work with uh Seer Interactive. Uh he disc uh he invented the approach by a uh recreating It's Napoleon's war as I forgot the name, but uh I think Lisa Myers, she was she originated the uh actual process for finding broken links. But uh Napoleon Suarez was the one who actually tried doing the outreach to replace links from uh pages that host uh the funk links. And yeah, but uh the thing is they didn't really bank on that idea. So the ones who are really uh making a ton of exposure from broken link b the broken link building methods are the new ones who have created uh really extensive guides about it, like uh Russ Jones, he he did the broken link building Bible.

20:23 I think Brian Dean is also pretty well known with broken link building. Jon Cooper is also well known for that that very same tactic. But no one really knows who invested. And it's Napoleon Suarez.

19:53 Woj Kwasi Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:39 Outside of his day-to-day duties as an industry-leading head honcho, Jason has continued to pursue his passion for music by producing the experimental rock band Magdalena, adding to the energy of a Philippines healthy underground music scene.

20:55 Bobby Bot I wonder if they are interested in collaborating with an aspiring rapper. Intent?

20:58 Jason Acidre Even back before I became an SEO I was I was playing drums for uh cou yeah, a couple of bands before. But uh I didn't really see myself doing it for the long term. But uh since uh I've always been close with uh a few friends in that spec uh that industry, since uh I've got a few friends who are running who have run big festivals in the Philippines. uh music festivals, concerts, and even some who are bringing foreign acts to the Philippines. So and just to give back to that community since uh I've been uh the that small community in the Philippines of uh experimental rock and progressive rock has really called me to someone that uh I I was actually surprised to be

21:51 to become uh uh someone who's been looked up into in the SEO industry, although, yeah, since uh hm and yes, with the Magdalena, uh basically we're just uh friends from way back then, childhood friends who have just decided to since we're already o

21:13 Woj Kwasi Mm. Yeah.

22:18 Jason Acidre Most of us are already in the early thirties so we kind of have figured out our professional lives out. So, it's easier to actually be more serious on in getting an album out. So, yeah, we've decided to just launch this and uh although the problem with us right now is most of us are really busy with our other other parts of our aspects of our lives, like uh half of us have our own families and uh and the Gators is actually an SEO too. Right, yeah.

22:33 Woj Kwasi Anyway. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Part of Xight or a different company?

22:59 Jason Acidre A different company. Yeah. He works for an American agency. Okay. And the drummer is a

23:02 Woj Kwasi Okay.

23:06 Jason Acidre A well-known Magento developer back in the Philippines. Yeah, he was one of the first five certified Magento developers in the Philippines.

23:14 Woj Kwasi For Jason, whether it's a professional gaming competition or business maneuver, staying one step ahead of the competition is a matter of survival. So I asked him about the future.

23:25 Bobby Bot Yeah.

23:26 Woj Kwasi The future. Future.

23:27 Bobby Bot Who checked?

23:28 The future

23:30 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

23:31 Jason Acidre The future of marketing definitely going to be harder, especially if you don't have the technical background of things. Although a lot of uh a lot of startups are trying to make the technical side easier for people that uh Shopify has been so easy to navigate. It's it has become more easy easy for people to start their own e commerce business. And I think that same approach will be implemented in marketing. But I guess if AI starts taking over some of the menial tasks, that could really change the whole uh environment of uh the industry. Like uh I guess the ones who'll just remain in doing what uh doing marketing would be the ones who are on the top level, like str on strategy, process development, uh, more technical consultants. So it's

24:33 a bit I think it's gonna be m more challenging and uh the the entry level will be uh yeah higher compared to this uh this era of marketing. Thus I think uh yeah, it's gonna be easier to measure things, uh success and uh it will be more aligned with other marketing channels like uh the traditional Channels. So and as for my future, since last year we've started to gradually pivot our company into building our own web properties. Then maybe in the next couple of years we'll start maybe uh getting out of the service based model. Yeah. Yeah, because it's really it's getting tiring and it

24:36 Woj Kwasi Mm-hmm. So Okay.

25:25 And the real challenge for sustaining uh

25:27 Jason Acidre sustaining uh

25:28 Woj Kwasi So you wanna become more of like a software as a service?

25:31 Jason Acidre A mix of yeah a mix of uh having uh having SaaS, having our own e-commerce websites. Since uh Philippines is really delayed when it comes to technology and uh the next five years I think that's the time when uh e-commerce will start to really be more profitable. Although there are players now in the Philippines who are have started to launch their own e commerce websites. So we're trying to get into that game right now. And yes, since the only way to really sustain an agency is to make sure you're keeping your good people around or having a really easy to follow process for new hires to scale your processes. But it's it's really tiring and uh I don't really see ourselves doing this business doing this business for the next ten years. So that's what we're looking into.

25:38 Woj Kwasi Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

26:31 Again, that was an awesome interview. Thank you Jason. I caught up with him in Adelaide, came all the way down to Australia from the Philippines. Hope to see him again. I know he's involved in conferences in the Philippines and he's still publishing content out there. And you can follow him on social media. As always, we'll have links in the show notes as well as his website and some of our favorite work he's produced. Now, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your pets, friends, associates, networks, colleagues, and bots. Now, Bobby's been programmed to be a quick learner, and it's time for Bobby to ask me a few questions that piqued his curiosity from his episode.

27:13 Bobby Bot What's your first person shooter of choice, Woj?

27:16 Woj Kwasi Well, back in the day, I liked Quake and Half-Life. These days, probably GTA, if I ever get the time.

27:26 Bobby Bot What has Jason's link studies taught us about digital empathy?

27:29 Woj Kwasi Well, it's important to understand people's motivations and why they do things online, and when you're approaching link building and especially outreach. It's a bit like dating or, you know, more so like getting married. You're not going to get married on the first interaction. It takes several interactions, building that rapport and understanding that there are humans that you're dealing with. And sometimes, you know, pick up the phone, give them a call instead of sending an email. What I learned in the Philippines was that link building is hard work. I went there to try to start a new office. I was super ambitious. I went there for a week and I did like two days of interviews, a couple of days of office scouting. We found some people, but during the interviews I was looking for link building extraordinaires and what I noticed was people changed their resumes. Since 2011, 2012, they were no longer link builders. They were keyword researchers, content producers.

28:30 So it just gave me a little bit of solace that we're doing the right thing. You know, we're sweating it out. It's hard work getting links. There's no shortcuts. And that's the way it has to be. It's all about quality. So

28:42 Bobby Bot 7.5 billion people perspectives and counting. We'll have to start including bots in the census soon, a user's perspective. Paradise. But promise me, no matter how surreal things get, we always make time for those multiplayer matches. Okay.

28:54 Woj Kwasi Consider it done. Well digital empathizers, that's all the time we have for today. Thanks again for listening along and don't forget to tune in next week for our conversation with Ian Lurie on episode 9. What's consistently

29:06 Ian Lurie worked is what's always worked in marketing and I say this I'm a broken record on this but you know it's still clear message well communicated and well executed and

29:16 Woj Kwasi remember look after each other online because because empathy is organic and you can't automate empathy. Pathy.