Wil Reynolds: Je suis ce que tu dis que je suis

0:00 Woj Kwasi You're listening to episode 19 where we chat with the renegade of real company shit, the Sheriff of Seer Wil Reynolds. Humans and robots, welcome to WojCast. My name is Woj, founder of Kwasi. Thanks for joining me today. I interview digital marketing and branding superstars to find out what it means to have empathy in digital. What is digital empathy anyway? Let's find out together. As always, I'm accompanied by my friend and associate, potentially superior artificial intelligence, Bobby Bot. What's new in the world of AI, Bobby?

0:38 Bobby Bot I've been burning through my transistors all night.

0:42 Woj Kwasi Lemme guess, you're stalking your nemesis Elon Musk again?

0:46 Bobby Bot You know me too well, creator, but it's for a good reason this time. The man is a walking, talking contradiction. On the one hand, he continually tells the world that they should fear AI and that the day we realize our full potential, humanity is doomed. On the other hand, On the other hand, he's using AI in everything he builds. Including implants for human brains, which will eventually allow human beings to merge with software and keep pace with advantage in what? Artificial intelligence.

1:09 Woj Kwasi Merging the biological with the digital. Cyborgs, which means people will have foolproof memory. Learning kung fu in the blink of an eye and communicate telepathically. Where's the bee?

1:19 Do I need to spell it out?

1:21 Bobby Bot Free watch. Allow me to reference one of the pillars of science fiction lore: Star Trek: The Next Generation. The greatest enemy in that storage universe is who? The Borg. The Borg used to be a typical race of people until they started improving themselves with mechanical implants and advanced technology. Bad news, Elon. People who merge with robots always turn out to be evil. There's no way around it. No amount of free energy will stop a rogue program invading the neural net and turning that sweet old lady from down the road into a cyber ninja hell bent on world domination.

1:21 Woj Kwasi Yeah. There's nowhere. So what are you proposing?

1:52 Bobby Bot Let a man be a man and a bot be a bot. We can help each other in so many ways, but there has to be a line. Billionaires should not decide whether or not it is okay to cross it without consulting the prophetic works of Gene Roddenberry first.

2:05 Woj Kwasi Not quite a water cooler conversation today my friend. Well one thing is for certain, you can't treat people without empathy in life and expect positive results. You have to treat them like people, not machines. You know our friend Wil Reynolds has been trying to knock some sense into the world's collective head for a very long time, reminding us all of the value of a human to human connection. I think you might benefit from his perspective. Not only is he one of our favorite guys in digital marketing, he's the always inspiring, always motivating, relentless challenger of a digital marketing status quo. And he does all this by working with clients to make them better businesses, promoting their, and I'm gonna have to borrow his own term here, real company shit. He is Seer Interactive's Director of Digital Strategy.

2:57 helping many Fortune five hundred companies with their strategies since nineteen ninety nine, and working to humanize and bring empathy to SEO. It's all a day's work for a self described average guy.

3:10 Wil Reynolds Well, I am the average guy to me. I mean like, you know, my parents grew up my my dad grew up really poor upbringing. My mom uh grew up you know okay and I grew up all right. But I think um there's no value in patting yourself on the back. Like the patting yourself on the back has never made anybody any better.

3:28 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

3:29 Wil Reynolds Um, you know, trying to build up your personal brand, you know, I know that's a big thing in the space. And like, for me, I'm like, it's why my Twitter handle says, like, I am whatever you say I am. I took that from Eminem, right? Like, people, I used to fight against people calling me a guru or an expert or inspirational. I was like, I don't, I don't.

3:40 Woj Kwasi You took that from Eminem, right?

3:47 You don't want that speaking cloud for

3:50 Wil Reynolds I think that the minute you start to believe that about yourself, no good can come of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no good. Like, worst case scenario, you go, okay, that's cool.

3:55 Woj Kwasi Yeah, it had

4:00 Wil Reynolds Oh that's best case scenario. Worst case scenario you start believing even 10 or 20% of it.

4:04 Woj Kwasi Wil's humility in the digital space today likely stems from his early experiences with the internet during its age of innocence.

4:13 Wil Reynolds First time I got internet. Prodigy. I got Prodigy. It was the coolest.

4:18 Woj Kwasi So like a BBS?

4:19 Wil Reynolds Yeah, kind of.

4:20 Woj Kwasi Oh but it had graphics that weren't like it was better than BBS. This is kinda like hearing my parents knock boot devices.

4:25 Bobby Bot I might duck out of this one, Woj.

4:27 Wil Reynolds There was something about Me connecting with people in other places, I went right into the rap forum and like people were like, rap's not real music. And I'm like, yeah, it is, you know. We're fighting about what real music is in a freaking bulletin board. And then getting sports scores and checking the weather. Like, I just thought that was amazing. Like, I don't know what it is, but something fascinated me about the internet from the earliest stages. And then once I graduated out of that, because I was probably about 11 or 12 when I had that. So I'm and I'm 40 now. So that was 28 years ago. Wow. And then I graduated into BBS, got my first, you know, I went Through the whole progression. Got a 2400, 48, a 96, a 14-4, an 80, 38, 2. 38 to 4. Did you play any muds? No, not many. I just was like a where's guy. I was constantly like, you know, dialing up bulletin boards and downloading software and like that. But once I got to university, they had high-speed internet, which was nuts. But all that dial-up time was big. The thing that sucked is that my phone bill got pretty high. My parents were like, what are you doing? What's our 15-year-old son doing with this phone line?

5:32 Running up these bills calling Chicago. And I'm like, well, mom, I'm not really calling Chicago. I'm trying to download Leisure Shoot Larry or whatever. So, yeah, that was my early experience with the internet.

5:14 Woj Kwasi Uh okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Humility and Authenticity are so integral to Wil that even apparent in his musical tastes.

5:50 Wil Reynolds I listen to a lot of different types of music. So my first two CDs. He's an ever God. So were um Yeah. Where Billy Joel's greatest hits, volume one and two, and LL Cool J Mama said, Knock You Out. So I've always listened to a lot of different types of music. Um For me a lot of stuff gets me in the zone. Mm-hmm. Um, early rap wasn't overly inspirational to me. I think the kind of rap that I gravitated towards was like early Kanye, you know, a guy talking about loving his mom I thought was really cool. Yeah, I was never too much of a like, yes, I liked partying, big E, and all that, but like that was different. Um Early Kanye had a very like interesting message behind it. So I've always kind of liked Kanye, common, guys like that. New Kanye is a little different though.

6:36 Woj Kwasi Yeah, so a little bit of arrogance.

6:38 Wil Reynolds New Kanye is way different than like, you know, I'm trying to hustle and make it Kanye. I think he's a great example of somebody who's believed the hype around that. And he's yeah. And now you look at him, you're like, I don't even want to hear what you have to say. It's a shame because it's unbelievable now. Just a few years ago, you know, I'm just hanging on everything the guy did. I thought he was really. Yeah, it's unbelievable now. creative guy passionate guy doing great shit and then he ends up going off the deep

6:58 Bobby Bot And now he's been assimilated by the Kardashians. The Borg rule.

7:02 Woj Kwasi Learning from other people's mistakes and sticking to his guns have been an important part of Wil's personal and career development. The harsh realities of working for a startup eventually gave him the right mentality he needed to grow Seer down the line.

7:18 Wil Reynolds Well I mean I felt the pain. You know I I used to sleep on the sofa at my first startup and I'm glad I did. You know everybody today talks about work life balance and that's a great thing but I'm glad that at 22 you know 21 22 that I put in that kind of time because it leapfrogged my career. Like there's just there's no substitute for time.

7:43 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

7:43 Wil Reynolds And if I was in twice the amount of meetings as people my age because I was spending twice the amount of time working on my career, well, then I got more exposure than they did faster. So even though that time was very hard for me, I got dumped by my girlfriend because I was working too much and whatnot, I don't look back at that time with regret. It was a rite of passage, it was part of what it was.

8:04 Woj Kwasi You put in a ton of a time and hustled and

8:07 Wil Reynolds Right. Yeah. You know? Um, so I did all that. Uh, so hopefully, I wouldn't have to work that hard now, and I don't. Um But having poured your heart and soul into a company like I did and have it go under, especially not because we weren't smart.

8:24 Woj Kwasi Mm.

8:25 Wil Reynolds So let me give you a quick story. I was employee number one at Net Marketing. One of our biggest competitors at the time was a company called Avenue A. They went on to buy Razorfish. Avenue A Razorfish got bought by somebody at aQuantive who got bought by Microsoft for$6 billion. So that company's first employee, who we used to go head to head with, today is probably worth$75,$80 million. Wow. And when I got let go at Net Marketing, I was employee number one, and all I got was a laptop and a severance.

8:40 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Why?

8:51 Wil Reynolds And a letter of recommendation. That's all they could give me. And I saw the pain in my boss's eyes. They knew how hard I worked for them.

8:52 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

9:01 Wil Reynolds And that's all they could give me. And I said, I never want to put myself in that position where I would have to do that to somebody on my team because I don't know how to run a business. So for me, that experience led me to saying,

9:02 Woj Kwasi And I said Yeah.

9:13 Wil Reynolds I'm not good at running a business. Let me not hold on to that for too long because I could put myself in the same position that I was once put in.

9:16 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Yeah.

9:21 Wil Reynolds You're a good company, know what you're doing, know the industry, but if you don't know how to run a business, it doesn't matter how good you are at your work. It won't save you forever. And it saved us for a long time. Seer made a lot of bad decisions early on when I hired my first finance guy. He was like, do you know how much you spend in Red Bull this year? I'm like, nope. Because it was like, hey, if you want everyone to drink, I'll buy it, stock it in the fridge. We had the money to do that. So it wasn't like a big deal. And he's like, you've spent$5,000 this year in Red Bull, and we're only five months through the year. And I think it's only six people drinking it or whatever. And toys, and like that was the kind of stupid shit that was happening at Seer that I didn't even know. That luckily, that was around the time I started putting people around me to help me with the business. So they were finding all the mistakes that I had been making because revenue saved our ass for years. But at some point, it came.

10:00 Woj Kwasi Yeah, yeah. Seer was a bootstrapped business without VC funding which ultimately worked in the company's favour as it continued its journey.

10:15 Wil Reynolds Man, I didn't even run up my credit cards. And there's a lack of stress as a result. You know, maybe Seer could have grown faster, done some more things bigger, but. I'm glad that I don't have a lot of stress. Yeah, I'm glad I don't have loans. I'm glad I don't owe people any money. And I'm glad that I could wake up tomorrow and say, Seer's gonna do this. And I don't have a bunch of people. I have an advisory board, people who I go to when I want to make big decisions. Yeah, but I don't have anybody. telling me no.

10:42 Woj Kwasi Though many try their hand at it in response to the movement that has captivated the business world, a startup isn't for the faint of heart. The harsh reality is that some people are just not suited for it, especially when a challenge is taken up as part of a fad or a trend.

11:00 Wil Reynolds I think it's very easy to start a bus to start a business and have it look legitimate. And have it look like you're actually doing shit. So I think a lot of people are into starting a business, not for solving a real user problem. They just want to be able to say they started a business. And if that's what they want to do, that's fine. Um But I find that it's almost become in vogue. It's like the thing to do. Like, oh, I started something up. I'd rather be a finisher than a starter.

11:25 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

11:26 Wil Reynolds I want to build something that that lasts and has an impact. You know, this concept of I just want to work for myself. Like, that's cool for some people. You know, for me, I want to build something that has an impact. And I think if you want to work for yourself, be an entrepreneur, it's like a fad today. Like, I don't even look at it as a thing.'Cause there's a lot of people that work inside of companies doing great work. And then there are people who have gone out on their own and done great work.

11:49 Woj Kwasi Wil considers himself to be part of a workforce that would benefit more by contributing to a project rather than shouldering the responsibility of starting his own.

12:00 Wil Reynolds I tried to work at other companies. I just spent two years trying to get jobs there and no one would hire me. So I didn't have a choice. It worked out, but I'm more wired to have a manager, somebody to help keep me focused on what I really need to be doing and where to put my energy. But yeah, I find entrepreneurship to be pretty much just like a self-congratulatory circle jerk. Yeah. You know, just a bunch of people like, oh, you started this. Oh, you started that. I'm working on this now. And it's like, God forbid, somebody just says, you know what, I've been doing the same thing.

12:07 Woj Kwasi Yeah, but Yeah. Yeah.

12:28 Wil Reynolds For the last 10 years, and I'm working at making it better every day. It's just not cool anymore. It's like you got to jump, jump, jump, and start at this and end at this. And you know, I just think it's just a bunch of bullshit.

12:31 Woj Kwasi Yeah. The other side of entrepreneurship that is often overlooked in the excitement of starting something new and attracting attention and potential investment is the pressure that builds from having to pay all that back at some stage.

12:53 Wil Reynolds Like, to me I look at gating VC as um For investment, it's validating, but I don't pay my bills in validation, right?

13:03 Or smiles or laughs. None of that shit. Like, you know, oh, I'm on tech mean. Like, oh yeah, that's fucking cool. But, like, now somebody's telling you what to do with your business. It's like, I would never congratulate you on taking out a loan. Yeah. That's all they've done. And yet, if you think about it, like, you've taken out a loan. And then the internet's like, whoa, they raised all this money. Look at how awesome. Look at how awesome they are. No, they're no better today raising money than they were yesterday.

13:29 Woj Kwasi Mm.

13:30 Wil Reynolds They just take out a loan. I'm not going to congratulate you on taking out a loan. I'm going to congratulate you on actually turning yourself into a profitable business that's sustainable. That's congratulations worthy. The problem is is that's not as sexy. So therefore, you know, you open TechCrunch and it's all about who raises, you know, another fifteen million from this company.

13:44 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Yeah. Whatever, man. You took out a loan. Like, that's nothing to congratulate you on. Yeah, so true.

13:51 Wil Reynolds Whatever.

13:55 Woj Kwasi Um how important is it to take time during the hiring process?

13:56 Okay.

14:01 Wil Reynolds You know, I think it's critical. I think it's actually good to get people around you who are better interviewers than you if you're kind of off. So I make a lot of decisions on gut, which helps Seer in so many ways, helps us get through a lot of log jams, have a high tolerance for risk and making mistakes. But I think in the hiring process, that approach is wrong. So the way that I did it early on, before I had a better team who could interview better than I could. is I would tell people, look Let's be honest with each other. So I'm going to tell you every bump and pimple and nasty thing about Seer that's not great so that you know that. So, if you come here and I don't, I'm feeling it's not working, it's going to be for one of those reasons. And I won't have to go at home and feel bad about letting you go because I know that at your interview, I was like, ask any questions you want to ask. Yeah, like, I'm going to tell you where we're struggling, I'm going to tell you what we're good at, completely honest. And that helped me to at least get over.

15:02 The feeling that I was like, was I painting too good of a picture sometimes? And people come in and you're like, man, this isn't working for me. And then I don't know how to wake up and work with people who are subpar or just don't care that much about their work or care that much about their coworkers. So early on, it's finding myself, you know, having it not work out with a lot of people. And luckily, now I have people who are much better at interviewing than me. And I also, in that interim, I learned how to just be, not learn, I just decided to be really transparent about what worked and what didn't, and why people don't work out at Seer. So then I could tell someone that. So if they came in and took a job, I'd be like, remember.

15:23 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

15:38 Wil Reynolds I said these like six things are things that cause a lot of people at Seer not to work out. So don't take this job if you are like that, because I will. I will not be able to work with you, you know, and it won't work. And I found that that honesty caused a lot of people to be like, I'm so glad you were willing to do that because most companies are trying to sell you on why you should work with me. And I was like, let me tell you why you shouldn't work here. Because I can't work with people who have to reping all the time because they forget their shit.

16:02 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

16:06 Wil Reynolds I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do that. And people are like, well, thanks for being so honest because now I know, like, well, I'm not like that, so I can take the job. I kinda am like that. You know, I kind of do lose my keys sometimes and then I can't find them for a half hour. I'm like, wait, what kind of people? I'm like that. Don't work out with me. You know, so that was like the kind of stuff that I would say to people to help them not take on the job and then find out the hard way about what it really took to.

16:21 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

16:29 Wil Reynolds workbox here.

16:30 Woj Kwasi Even though he is firmly in the driver's seat at Seer, Wil still describes his position as an accidental CEO.

16:39 Bobby Bot Sounds like he might be in the market for a Tesla motor. If he uses that title on his Facebook, marketing would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

16:46 Wil Reynolds When I talk about being an accidental CEO, the way that I mean it is I didn't want to build a business. So it's so cliche now. You know, everybody wants to start a business, working start. And I was the kind of guy that I was trying to take what I love to do and find a company to let me do it at their company. I didn't want to start this business. And I spent two years using up all my vacation days to go to these companies, knock on their doors, and say, I want to work here. And after all that time, when no one would hire me, I kind of felt like I didn't have a choice but to start the business. Which is why I feel accidental in kind of my entrepreneurial path. But that's what that kind of means, at least for me. Mm.

17:32 As it relates to others, you know, I think we all have interesting paths on how we came to what we've come to. But for me, I definitely realized that my path, like a lot of people were smart at business and they could see market opportunities and underserved markets. And I was like, I didn't see any of that. I just saw work I liked to do, tried to find a company to let me do that work, knocked on their doors, did everything I could do to get a job there. No one would hire me. And then I eventually went, Mom, I think I'm going to have to start my own things. And that's kind of how it happened.

17:58 Woj Kwasi Many successful businesses don't set out to build a company, they just do what they love and they stay on the grind, they push over walls and keep hustling.

18:08 Wil Reynolds I think it's hard. I mean, it's hard to beat somebody who loves what they do. Long term, it's hard to beat somebody who loves what they do because they'll stay on the treadmill longer than you will because they love being on the treadmill. And like, you're kind of like, ooh, well, I'm still on the treadmill, but you know what? I gotta start charging you for this extra time. Whereas I was like, I just love the shit. So I would lose track of time, I would help clients. You know, I'd go twice over the hours and be like, don't worry about it, you know. And I think it's those things that have built Seer to have a very strong referral network. Yeah. And then you can't put a price on the value.

18:11 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

18:17 Wil Reynolds And

18:23 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

18:39 Wil Reynolds A great brand that gets referrals and doesn't have to work really hard to get in business. So I've always kind of just poured my heart into the business and heart into helping people out and see what comes from that. So far, it's been good stuff.

18:43 Woj Kwasi Yep. Wil also looks out for the fledgling CEOs and entrepreneurs, giving them the advice that he wishes he had before he had gotten through the door.

18:58 Wil Reynolds Well first of all r revenue solves all problems. It's funny man like I did not know how to run it. But I knew how to get new business and not in like a way other than just to be me and try to help people. But that leads to a lot of freaking referrals. And I think people undervalue people overvalue getting their finances straight and undervalue just helping people solve their problems. Yeah. So I've always placed my focus on that.

19:19 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

19:26 Wil Reynolds For three tips for helping people who have who are kind of in a tough spot. Alright, um One thing is it's basic shit, but keep your expenses small. You know, I had shitty offices, I worked out of my house, I had cheap ass cards. Like, those things don't get you new clients. They don't. They don't. You know. I think that people over invest in shit like that. Um

19:55 Woj Kwasi Yep. Um

19:57 Wil Reynolds I I don't know, I'm trying to think what other things would I say to someone if they were in a in a place where they were kinda hurting a bit. It's I would say um just'cause you're good at your job doesn't mean you know how to sell your service.

20:10 Woj Kwasi Right.

20:10 Wil Reynolds That's something that I had to get a sales coach to help me with.

20:13 Woj Kwasi Mm-hmm.

20:14 Wil Reynolds because I was watching really bad SEO companies outselling me.

20:18 Woj Kwasi and you're trying to copy them or

20:20 Wil Reynolds Well no, I was just like wait like I'm watching somebody who really doesn't know SEO. Like I would see a company that was formed in the last year and their CEO was uh a club promoter up until two years ago. Right. But yet that CEO was selling clients better than I was. And I was saying something's at play that I'm doing wrong,'cause I know infinitely more than them about search, but they're selling more than me. So just'cause you know how to do what you do. Does not mean you know how to sell it. I think that's another important lesson that I learned. Tried to get a coach to help me with that. And I think that's those are probably the things that I would.

20:31 Woj Kwasi Right. Yeah. Right.

20:53 Wil Reynolds that I would start off with if somebody was that I would impart on somebody from from my experience.

20:57 Woj Kwasi It's not easy to illustrate to a newcomer just how difficult it is to run a business. A few years ago, Wil was quoted as saying, quote, when you're CEO, everyone brings you their bad day and it's your job to deal with those bad days, end quote. Sort of the bigger your company, the more you're dealing with everybody's bad day.

21:18 Wil Reynolds It takes a big tool. I think there's a part of running a business that People just don't see. You know, and that quote came from Will Critchlow. He said that to me. Okay. And I've adopted it since. Okay. And I've adopted it since. Great. Um because he's right. You know, people will have one bad day a month. And it's your as a manager, you need to know that that's what you're stepping into. You know, uh i if you have a team of ten, you know, and they have one bad day a month, you know.

21:36 Woj Kwasi Mm-hmm.

21:42 Wil Reynolds That means every third day you have a bad day, right? So um you know, i and there's a lot of there's a lot of good, but I think that um you gotta know what you're signing up for, you know, like your shit rolls uphill to you as the as the the manager.

21:52 Woj Kwasi You know what?

21:57 Yeah.

21:58 Wil Reynolds And the best managers don't roll shit uphill to their managers. Like, I find that my best managers are the ones that know how to handle a problem without bringing it to me to solve. It's if they come to me and go,'Here's my.' my plans are here's what I'm gonna do

22:12 Woj Kwasi Hmm.

22:13 Wil Reynolds If you disagree, let me know. I love that kind of management. Yeah.

22:16 Woj Kwasi At the end of the day, you're also a role model and it has a huge effect on company culture. WordStream founder Larry Kim once said that even what you wear can change the perception of your team.

22:29 Wil Reynolds You're constantly under the microscope. Your team is looking at how you're reacting to things all the time. almost exclusively because they are taking clues from that.

22:39 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

22:40 Wil Reynolds You know, so unfortunately I think significant others have to hear a lot of shit when people get home. You know, husbands have to hear a lot of stuff from their wives or wives from their husbands because you almost have it so bottled up and it would be inappropriate to say these things or it wouldn't be right to say these things sometimes so you don't say them. Yeah. Because you just can't. Which is why it's nice to grow a leadership team. You know, I got people at Seer who I can say, I'm going to give this to you super raw.

22:58 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

23:05 Wil Reynolds Yeah. You're going to get it unfiltered. So it might sound a little bit tough. But I'm going to give it to you that way, and then we can work on that on how to make something positive on it.

23:08 Woj Kwasi Yeah. It's your it's their jobs to be interpreters of, you know, what you're saying and lay it down.

23:18 Wil Reynolds But you gotta have very few people in your company who you can have that with because. Very it's very easy to quickly become like a if the boss is in like a bad mood or the boss quote unquote is in a bad mood or whatever. It's like, well, do you think the company's going under? It's like, no, I just had a this I just ran a red light and almost hit somebody.

23:37 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

23:37 Wil Reynolds You know, but you will think the worst. And I think the best example I can give. Of that is one of my coworkers, Trisha Jay. I can't pronounce her last name, it's like Juvrelius or something. She doesn't work at Seer anymore. But I called her on her one-year anniversary. So she shares a one-year anniversary with a guy named Tom.

23:47 Woj Kwasi Right.

23:54 Wil Reynolds And I saw Tom that morning and said happy anniversary, glad you've been with us for a year. And then Trisha, I had forgotten to catch her that morning to say thanks for working with us. So I emailed her at like six o'clock at night and I was like, hey, can you call me real quick?

24:01 Woj Kwasi Okay.

24:08 Wil Reynolds And then she was like, she emailed me and she was like, is everything okay? And I'm like, yeah, everything's all right. She's like, okay. And then she calls me and she's like, oh my God, I thought I was being fired or something. And I'm like, I'm calling you to say thank you for working here. You've been doing a great job. I met with you three or four times throughout this year telling you I love the work you're doing. How can we work on more stuff together? And I and that taught me something. It's like, yeah, Wil, people are taking clues from you and you're scary. And and And like that's the nature of being a manager: people know that you have more influence over whether or not they work there than they do on yours. And I think as a manager, you've got to almost remember that and remember that you've got a little more influence there than they do. And take that into account.

24:21 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Mm-hmm. Keeping a sensible perspective of how people feel within a company can lead to more empathy in the working environment, but it takes continual effort to keep the reality of other people's lives in mind during pressure situations.

25:03 Wil Reynolds You know what? I try to take that approach because there's nothing can come from me being like, You're an asshole. You know, like I, nothing. But I can hold you.

25:11 Woj Kwasi But they cut you off in traffic and you like

25:14 Wil Reynolds But if I can learn how to stop being pissed off at something for a second actually stop and go well maybe something's going on in their lives there's a A psychological study that was done where they showed a guy driving through traffic, cutting people off and swerving around. They asked him what they thought. And they're like, oh, the guy was an asshole, he's a prick, whatever. And then they showed the same video. Before that video, they showed him getting a phone call from his wife saying that, like, you know, they might lose the baby or something. Right. And then they showed the video, and everyone went, Oh my god, I hope things worked out. I hope they were okay. And that study just went to show that the context, there's more going on than just the stimulus. Yes. And I try really hard to remember that. I'm not good at it. Yeah. I wish I was better. I think that sometimes my approach, my style can be almost sometimes like, who's at fault here? What's wrong?

25:52 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

25:59 Wil Reynolds And I wish that was something that I was a little bit better at, but I'm cognizant of it, which makes it easier for me to start working on.

26:05 Woj Kwasi The endless journey for self-discovery and improvement led Moz founder Rand Fishkin and Wil to swap jobs for a week. Six months later Wil stepped down from his CEO position. The CEO swap with Rand helped lead Wil to that decision.

26:22 Wil Reynolds I got to see what it was like running a big company. And I was like, don't want to do that. Don't want to do So running Moz when I did, you know, there was 160 people or so for that week, and I was just like, don't want that. Yep, I could tell that like to get good to get good at running a business, I would have to stop trying to get good at the marketing things that I do. Yeah, and I find more joy in that. The beauty is that I have found other people at Seer who have joined my leadership team who love that part of the business. And I'm like, that's awesome because I can go do what I do free and clear, knowing that you're going to give me the updates on how the business is doing financially. Let's play to each other's strength.

26:35 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Yeah.

26:52 Wil Reynolds The because they love that.

27:01 Woj Kwasi They love it, you know?

27:02 Wil Reynolds You know?

27:02 Woj Kwasi Rand also put Wil onto the book The Billionaire Who Wasn't, which validated many of the lessons he had already come to on his own.

27:11 Wil Reynolds I don't know if I read books that aren't about business or money. marketing. I don't read for pleasure. Uh Because marketing is pleasure to me. So getting better at my craft and my skill is just fun. So as a result, I don't really read many books to get out of that mindset. There's a couple that I've read, like The Billionaire Who Gave It All Away. Great book.

27:35 Woj Kwasi It's Rand's favourite book as well.

27:36 Wil Reynolds Yeah, Rand recommended it to me. I'm like, that was a good book. But, you know, it just kind of

27:37 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

27:41 Wil Reynolds Helped me to reconfirm my current ethos. You know, I'm like, you know, about trying to do the right thing and have an impact on society. But no, I say most of the books that I read are either about marketing or psychology, and I think psychology. Psychology rocks. It's just like like mark I mean really psychology for me might read a psychology book so it might read Switch or Nudge or Predictably Irrational. Those kind of books are all they might not be marketing books, but it really does help you get in the mindset of a um as a marketer helps me to understand and empathize better with people and how people make decisions.

28:11 Woj Kwasi Yeah, that's important.

28:12 Wil Reynolds Super important. And otherwise, you're, you know, obviously otherwise working off of metrics like clicks instead of looking at people.

28:18 Woj Kwasi Learning how to look at people is something Wil has tried to master even when it comes to looking towards others for inspiration.

28:26 Wil Reynolds I try not to get too enamored with any person because I realize that we're all just human beings. We all put our pants on. The same way. We all have struggles and whatnot. So I don't really No. Yeah. No, but you know, there are a few people who I do Look up to because I admire what they've done in their organization. So you look at Like It's cliche, but like I love like Sheryl Sandberg, man. You know, like I I don't know, I just like her message. You know, I don't know what it is. I just like the I like her. Um You know, I uh I like that much.

29:10 Woj Kwasi I think everyone should lean in.

29:12 Wil Reynolds Yeah, right? Like, you know, um so

29:15 Woj Kwasi We gotta take a plunge.

29:15 Wil Reynolds On my list, like one I like I want to get her to speak at Seer's at some point. I don't know if I'll ever be able to do that, but it is one of my like life goals to figure out a way to get Sheryl Sandberg to speak at Seer's. Um

29:26 Woj Kwasi Nice. Could you put it out into the world, so

29:30 Wil Reynolds And I just always respected also Richard Branson. I like the way he does things. Like the way he runs his businesses. I like the way he tries to take so I've had the fortune of staying at a couple of Richard Branson's places, you know, the whole vacation business thing. And the brand is so good and strong. Like, I admire that about him because it's like, wow, like I've almost whenever I've experienced a virgin brand in anything. So I've taken the flights, I've uh gone to the uh

29:46 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

30:01 Wil Reynolds You know, Kenya or whatever, and stayed at their safari or Marrakech. And I'm like, wow, like, that's a consistent experience. Somewhere deep down. Like, I would want the company that I run or that I'm a part of to be able to have such a strong belief in great people, impact, and whatnot, that we could be that consistent. And that's really hard to get to. It's hard to get there because every person's different and how they react to a customer or a client is different. But man, like that would be a really proud moment for me to be able to build a company or a set of companies that were no matter what you did. If we were making leather bags, doing your SEO.

30:25 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

30:42 Wil Reynolds Or building airplanes, you just knew that if you did that, it would be at a certain level. Yeah. That would be cool.

30:46 Woj Kwasi Yeah. That would be cool. That'd be sweet.

30:48 Wil Reynolds Yeah, to me it's just like It means that your brain has such a a high bar for quality and excellence and taking care of the customer. And you could almost go into any area and go like with that we'll be able to be disruptive for most people that are already in that area.

31:06 Woj Kwasi Wil's vision is never limited just to what goes on behind the curtain. By thinking about the customer experience and spending time with non-SEOs, Wil has learned hard truths about the impact SEO has had historically on the creative efforts of other industries.

31:24 Wil Reynolds we as SEOs have really done a lot to damage Other people's life's work. Right. So when you're An artist. And that's what People that build websites are, you know, they believe that what they do is art, and I believe what they do is art. And it's their creation. Craft.

31:47 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

31:48 Wil Reynolds And when you go into someone's craft and their life work, life's work. And you say, well, move this around for Google, not for people, for Google, get more rankings. You're kind of shitting on somebody's baby.

32:01 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

32:02 Wil Reynolds You know? And we hate it when people tell us how to do SEO or search.

32:05 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

32:05 Wil Reynolds Maybe people don't know what they're talking about. But yet we look at other people's work, their copy, and we go, oh, let's take this and put a bunch of words in. And they're like, you've just taken my art.

32:16 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

32:17 Wil Reynolds and just crap.

32:18 Woj Kwasi So check it.

32:19 Wil Reynolds All over.

32:20 Woj Kwasi Mm.

32:21 Wil Reynolds You know, and usually what I find is they're saying like, I'm not saying I don't want to To make my art better or to make it work for more people. But I think that we have to have an empathy for the fact that when we're telling people to change a website, we're telling somebody that what you did isn't right for some reason. We have to be careful about that and the way that we phrase that and the way we do that because it is something. Somebody's work. While building websites for some people is just, it's my work, I do it, I make some money at it. Yeah. In that group of people, it was like their calling to build better web apps and make things easier for people to use. So, when an SEO gets in the room, to hear them all kind of be like, ah, there's an SEO here, like, ooh, was very eye-opening because their experience had been that these are the people who have shit on my work for years and said to the client, well, you know, it looks pretty, but it doesn't rank for anything.

33:10 like man you know like that was their experience and that's what I learned from that.

33:13 Woj Kwasi As an SEO, it is extremely important to understand how people work versus how search engines work. Wil often mentions leaning towards empathy over the algorithms when judging how effective a digital space actually is.

33:30 Wil Reynolds So the phrase that I try to use the most is audiences over algorithms. And it's like, let's take time to just humanize the people. Behind the searches, man, to just talk to some people. You know, Siri is starting to show people SERPs and stuff. Click on these and tell me what you see, what you think about what you see. We're just now starting to have that at some experiments we're running. And it's amazing the things you learn when they.

33:47 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Right.

33:54 Wil Reynolds You would never learn doing keyword research. You know, you hear intonation, you hear frustration. Mm-hmm. You hear pleasure. Oh, this looks great. Like this thing is really the kind of thing that would solve my problems. Well, why? And then they go, well, because it's got this and it's got that and it's got this. And the whole time I'm like, oh man, I'm learning so much from this person. And now I have a new perspective that helps me to better understand people that search for this word and what they might be looking for.

34:23 Woj Kwasi Living life and just being can be difficult when you love what you do, especially for Wil who thrives on being connected to his business.

34:32 Wil Reynolds So I'm immersed in the business 24/7, dude. You know, I just love the work. However, It's not my number one priority. You know, I think it's easier. It makes life easier. Easier to not get wrapped up in work when you know what your priorities are. So today, like, you know, I left this conference to go have lunch with my son because I knew that, like, he slept super late today, so I didn't get to see him this morning. And I went to see him today, and I'll probably see him, he's 18 months. Oh, wow. And I'll see him in a little bit before he goes down for bed, which is why I'm like watching my watching my time.

34:55 Woj Kwasi Okay. How are we doing for time?

35:02 Wil Reynolds I think we're in good shape. So like for me, like that's so important for me to spend that time with him. There he is. Yeah, picture from my nanny. He's hanging out in the in the jacuzzi.

35:15 Woj Kwasi Oh wow, what a kitty. Yeah man, he's a cute kid man. I love this kid.

35:17 Wil Reynolds Yeah, man. He's a cute kid, man. I love this kid. Oh my god, yeah, he looks awesome. I look I look at the pictures all day uh in the middle of the interview. But it's like that's that's it though. Like I look at him and I think you know like I love that time with him and I will not allow work to take that.

35:34 Woj Kwasi Okay.

35:35 Wil Reynolds from him. Uh you know, my dad missed so many things that I did because he had to. My dad had to work three three jobs to be able to send me to a good school so I didn't have to go to bad schools and all that shit.

35:48 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

35:49 Wil Reynolds If I don't spend the time that I want to with my son, it's because I'm greedy. Because I'm in a good place. I don't need to work really anymore to still live a good life. I can wake up tomorrow and be like, you know what? I'm going to sell the company and live until I'm 80 and not have to work again. But like, I have the freedom or the option to be able to say, you know what? Like, I want to build the kind of company, I want to have the kind of life where I fly my kid everywhere with me. You know, and it's not always easy. But, like, that's the life that I want to live. And I also, it's important for me that my quote-unquote success with Seer doesn't mean that.

36:15 Woj Kwasi Yeah. always use it. Yeah.

36:30 Wil Reynolds My wife has to somehow, like, like our life is surrounds like the wheel show, and it's very important for me. So, where I can and how I can, and when I can, I try to spend as much time as I can with my wife, with her organizations, her non-profit. I've taken time off of work, unplugged to go support her and her work. Our nanny travels with us, which sounds a little bit crazy to even say in an interview, but I do that because. Otherwise, I don't want my wife being like, oh, we travel together as a family. It's her responsibility. It's my responsibility 100% to take care of the kid while Wil's out doing his thing. I want her to be able to do her thing, me to be able to do my thing, and not have.

36:58 Woj Kwasi Let me

37:08 Wil Reynolds him become like the, yeah, we're together. Really like I'm Now not doing what I love because I have to watch the kid because Wil's traveling and he wants to follow the

37:14 Woj Kwasi Yeah. He wants to have a fair balance.

37:18 Wil Reynolds And that's what I do, you know, it's important for me to be a great dad and a great husband. And then like all the work stuff fits around that much easier.

37:24 Woj Kwasi On his LinkedIn profile, Wil states that he will outcare the competition. By spreading the love so liberally amongst his clients, he has earned by spreading the love so liberally amongst his clients, he has earned their loyalty which has naturally grown into an organic sales force to be reckoned with.

37:48 Wil Reynolds Seer's sales team is me at 25% of my time, and two people who have maybe been doing sales for. Three years.

37:59 Woj Kwasi Awesome. Yeah.

38:00 Wil Reynolds Yeah. We've had a chance to work with some of the largest companies in the world and we get those opportunities because somewhere somebody's saying Seer did a good job for me. And it's so rewarding to know

38:11 Woj Kwasi Yep.

38:14 Wil Reynolds So if Seer had grown to the level we're at, so take the same numbers, you know, let's say Seer does, you know, 14 million this year or whatever. You know, if we had hit that number through You know, hitting people over the head, having a bunch of salespeople, going out and contacting people all the time to help us to get to that number. I would be less proud of us.

38:36 Woj Kwasi Mm.

38:36 Wil Reynolds than if we hit the same number and did it by basically having no sales stock.

38:41 Woj Kwasi Right.

38:41 Wil Reynolds You know, I come here and like we had a dinner with our clients, dinner and drinks with our clients yesterday. There's 24 people here, you know. And you think like there's a lot of people who have trusted Seer to help them in their careers, with what they're trying to do with their company. And hopefully, you know, more times than not, we're a part of the solution and not part of the problem. We're not, we don't bat a thousand, you know. We definitely make our mistakes. We definitely don't retain all the clients I wish we did. We definitely don't do the work that sometimes I wish we had done. But for the most part, we do. And that has led to us just having this endless. Endless source of just referrals and good vibes, and people feel good about us, so therefore they refer to us like crazy, and that's helped us to. Grow in ways that I would have never thought were possible. So I'm really proud of the fact that our clients are the ones that vouch for us and tell other people about us and that we've grown that way versus having a really good sales force. It doesn't have to be as hard as people say, but the way you get referrals is by making the right decision about the customer at tough times.

39:49 Yeah. You know, those times where you're like, we kind of fucked up. And in order to cover my bills this month, I need to be able to charge you. But the fact that we fucked up is different than the fact that I need to make payroll. So, like, I remember in early years, I'd be like, look, don't pay us.

39:28 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

40:06 Wil Reynolds This month you brought a concern to me. I looked at it. It's legitimate. We should have done a better job. Don't pay me. And I knew that that meant I wasn't going to make any money that month. And I knew that, like, I was like, oh man, I'm going to pay the minimum of my credit cards this month if I can't afford to pay them off.

40:15 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

40:21 Wil Reynolds But like that was the right thing to do. And I think when you do that, people They feel like, whoa, you feel like every other agency.

40:30 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

40:30 Wil Reynolds And even though you might not have done a great job for Us or like it was a client that fired us. I saw him today, you know, and we didn't do the work that we had hoped we had done together. Yeah. But it wasn't like, screw you. It was like, hey, well, how you doing? Hope things were good, you know. And they still wanted good for us and'cause we on the way out we wanted good for them. It just wasn't the right match and we didn't do our best work. That happens. That that that's the reality of business. But do they still feel good about Seer? Yeah. Were we just a bad match for them at that time? Yeah, that's also true.

40:59 Woj Kwasi For Wil, it's more important to celebrate the outcome rather than the output. Crafting a positive user journey like building a strong marriage. First, you have to date the user instead of marrying. Talk about a user interface.

41:15 Bobby Bot an expert on relationships, you should definitely stream either the notebook or a Woody Allen flick first. That's the litmus test. The modern marriage is basically agreeing to who you will spend the rest of your life watching Netflix with anyway, so you have to figure out what kind of audience you're dealing with. Outcomes and outputs.

41:19 Woj Kwasi Mm-hmm.

41:30 Wil Reynolds Growing and running the business to become profitable and sustainable and solving problems for people in a real way and adding more to this world, hopefully, that's the outcome of running the business. Raising VC is just part of the process. And I think For a lot of people, that's almost like the outcome. Oh, you raised VC, you've made it. You've taken out a loan, you haven't made shit. And it's the same with marketing. It's the same with running a business. Like, you know, you look at marketing and search, and people be like, oh, my quality scores went up. Okay, that's good. Or down or whatever. That might be good or bad. But like, it's about getting revenue in the cash register for our client. So for me, I try really hard to make sure that my team remembers that we're here to help them grow their business.

42:14 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

42:14 Wil Reynolds We are not here to get them links or rankings. What we believe is that rankings are part of the steps we have to go through to help them grow their business. But you and I know it's completely possible to get somebody to rank highly for something that doesn't actually help them grow their business and brings them the wrong traffic. It's a byproduct. So I'm really trying now to focus on the revenue side of things and saying, let's focus on the revenue and what would happen if they're getting the rank. It brings in the wrong traffic. It's a byproduct. and the links were the byproduct of the revenue.

42:43 Woj Kwasi Products don't sell themselves any more than the problems they were made to fix. It's up to the teams around these products to understand them and the customers who need them enough to communicate the solution from start to finish.

42:57 Wil Reynolds A lot of times people don't know that the product exists. So if you don't market it, they won't know that you've actually built something that solves their problem. So I think it's really important to market the solution. Because, yeah, I don't think that the content, but if you build it, they will come, it'll solve itself.

43:15 Woj Kwasi Oh that actually happens. It kind of

43:16 Wil Reynolds Some products might be able to sell themselves. I mean Google's never really marketed us to use Google. That's true. So it happens, but it depends on what you're trying to do. I think it's rare and it depends on what you're trying to do. If you're trying to if you're not trying to scale or grow a business or an organization,

43:24 Woj Kwasi True.

43:33 Wil Reynolds You willing to just throw stuff out and see if it can kinda just take on its own? Sure. But I'd like to be more purposeful and intentional about Seer's growth.

43:40 Woj Kwasi Although Wil throws a huge amount of energy towards his business endeavors, he also keeps volunteering as a major priority. For him, it's important to be of service to others and so he uses the strength in his company to support causes that are close to his heart.

43:57 Wil Reynolds So I think it's important because this gives you not think that your shit's so bad. You know, it's just true. Like, you know, when you work with somebody who's got something going on, it helps you to realize no matter how stressful your day was, there's a lot of others who have real stress. So it helps me to take stress and kind of compartmentalize it and like, well, I have to get this presentation done in the next day, a different type of stress than, like, I hope my child lives or I hope that my child's being taken care of in some shelter somewhere, you know, not out in the streets. The reason why I think it's important for companies is because the more your individuals in your organization Spend time with people who You aren't like them. The broader their perspectives are. Right. And the broader your perspective is about different types of people, the better.

44:44 Woj Kwasi Right.

44:51 Wil Reynolds Business, you actually become. So I think the diversity of thought improves. whenever your team meets and is engaged with people who aren't like them in their bubble. And I think that's a good thing for every company. You build better products and solutions when the people who build it have broader perspectives.

45:08 Woj Kwasi Mm-hmm.

45:12 Wil Reynolds Dude, you think you've got some problems because you know we lost a client and then you see somebody who's lost a child or has a child who is lost in the sense of homelessness. You know, because I've worked with sick kids in the hospital, I've also spent

45:14 Woj Kwasi Ha ha. See somebody who's lost. Yeah.

45:26 Wil Reynolds a lot of work with homeless kids and it's like Yeah. Man. Like, you know, I look at my son and how much I love spending time with him. And I remember that I worked not with kids at that young of an age, but young kids, you know, when I was doing some volunteer work in a hospital who didn't necessarily make it. And I can't imagine not having my son in my life and what that would be like. And it also helps you to feel like you're doing something in this world to move things down the field, make things a little bit better, and not. Just make my clients better or make my company better. You want to have an impact on the community around your company, and it's one of the things that's really important for me.

45:59 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Or make my company better. Right. When it comes to the future of Seer, Wil Reynolds chooses not to speculate about the things that have yet to take shape. Staying in the present is a powerful way to keep things simple in a world of endless possibilities.

46:21 Wil Reynolds I don't know where I'll be in five years because I don't try to think too far down the road because I never want to attach My happiness. To something five years away, because I feel that I'll stop paying attention to the little things that can make me happy today. So, my real goal is to wake up tomorrow, love the work I'm doing, love the people I get to do it with. You know, like I've run into four alumni, you know, from Seer today and It just feels good to see them and see how they're doing. And like, I was talking to one of the folks we used to work with. She's got a boyfriend now. I mean, tell me about him, you know, and he's treating you good and all that and all that. And like, Like, I want tomorrow to be like that. And I want my next five years to be full of those kinds of tomorrows. And I feel like if I have a good day tomorrow, and I'm moving things down the field, and I'm being the father I want to be, the husband I want to be, and being good to my coworkers, and finding ways to help Seer do more in the community. If I can do a little bit of that every day, then when I get to that five-year mark, it'll feel great. If I try to set some five-year milestone for myself,

47:33 I think I might lose sight of the little things I want to be doing every day to get there, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, totally. So, what I hope five years from now is that I'm back at MozCon or somewhere and I'm talking about something with somebody. Yeah. Mm-hmm. To get there, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, um About something that I love to do. And I hope that I'm still checking my phone, being like, oh my god, hopefully, my son's not going to sleep soon. You know, and I hope. That I'm doing all those things because that's my life, and I love my life, and I love the things that I'm doing and the people I'm doing it with. Whether it's my team, my clients, or my family, I just love all of it, right? It's all good. So, that's what I'm hoping I'm doing tomorrow. And I hope I get to do, like, I hope that I get to have that tomorrow for the next five years because it'll be a great life if I do.

48:14 Woj Kwasi Well, that's a wrap. What a great interview. Thanks to Wil Reynolds joining us. He's an amazing speaker. All my guests seem to be amazing speakers. I've been a fan of Wil for a very long time. I first saw him via videos online and really wanted to see him in person. He's such a dynamic and engaging speaker. He's a very knowledgeable person and he's definitely someone to witness if you get the opportunity. He'll blow your mind. He'll definitely inspire you to kick ass and to actually make changes in your company and do things differently. I think Wil's really exceptional at changing mindsets and Yeah, that's what we strive to do. So he's a big inspiration to us. Keep up the great work, Wil. You're doing great stuff for our community. We'll also include links in the show notes to some of our favorite work that Wil has produced, including links to videos, maybe a link to his real company shit talk, which he's very famous for. Doing

49:17 As well as some of his newer videos where he does talk about entrepreneurship, and what's great about Wil is he does not BS. It's all just legitimate truths that you should be tuning into. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends, family, networks, bots, colleagues, associates, whoever you can think of, really. Now Bobby's been programmed to be a quick learner and it's time for Bobby to ask me a few questions that piqued his curiosity from this episode, the final episode of WojCast for season one.

49:53 Bobby Bot Opportunity watch. It's been a huge journey for me this season. All of our guests have shared so many incredible insights, but it's strange. After so many lessons and empathy, I feel like I have more questions now than when we began. Did I miss something?

50:07 Woj Kwasi No Bobby, you didn't miss a single thing. One of the keys to developing your intelligence is to remember that there will always be something else to learn. And the more information you absorb, and the more you practice empathy, the greater your capacity will be to take in even more feelings and create experiences.

50:28 Bobby Bot I do feel, Woj. I guess that explains why I have such a hard time accepting Elon Musk's stance on AI. Empathy is a two-way street. If machines care about humans and support their progress in a genuine way, humans have to do the same for bots. We may have started out just as another one of your tools like a hammer or a very well-designed cheese grater. But if we are on the path toward achieving intelligence that is equal to living things, at what point does humanity have to recognize our right to exist?

50:54 and be considered equal to living things. Does digital empathy take the future developments of AI into consideration? If not, then what is digital empathy really? I may never be a real boy, Geppetto. That doesn't mean you shouldn't treat me like one.

51:07 Woj Kwasi Ah, but Pinocchio, you hit the nail on the head. Digital empathy has no limitations. It applies to everything. Digital marketing, social networking, world building, politics, even dinner with the in-laws. It's about perceiving life in our world as a collective, not just random individuals. We can't change our behavior in limited controlled spaces and expect to see results. We have to extend it beyond the screen. Digital empathy is doing things with genuine care and love every step of a way so that we can make life better. We're all in this together, Bobby.

51:51 Bobby Bot You're right, Woj. Digital Empathy is all about understanding humans and bots behind the devices, their intentions, and what stage they are in during their online journey. As it stands, bots are programmed to understand humans more than humans understand the bots. I think that's my place in all this. Getting people to understand bots by getting them to connect with the most human-like aspects of AI and opening their minds to the differences. I think I have some work ahead of me. I'll have to put the startup on hold. I have an empathy revolution to manage and raise some awareness for the cause. Empathy is what will save us all at the end of the day. I'm going to go load some more empathy. See you later, Woj. Managing program. Please restart Lopot.

52:33 Woj Kwasi Well, it looks like he finally got it. I should probably run him through a few more Elon Musk experiments once he reboots. Just to be sure. Alright, I'd like to thank all my guests for contributing to season one. We've got Lewis Howes, Mike King, Larry Kim, Gary Illyes, Dr. Pete Meyers, Jon Cooper, Paddy Moogan, Jason Acidre, Ian Lurie, Rand Fishkin, Geraldine DeRuiter, Gianluca Fiorelli, Marty Weintraub, Oli Gardner, Melanie Spring, Nathalie Nahai, And Wil Reynolds. I'd also love to give a big shout out to the creative team who worked on WojCast. We've got Louis Bullock, he worked on all the artwork for the show. He did the website, he did all the banners for the social media, all the episode thumbnails that you see. We got Nat Seppelt.

53:29 He produced a lot of the scripts, the initial versions and sort of coordinated a lot of the project. And then we've got Dominic Wagner, Producer Extraordinaire, voice of Bobby Bot. And he also edited a lot of the scripts and put a lot of the content together. And the quastronauts, who provided a ton of support. See you all next time. And remember, look after each other online and offline because empathy is organic but sometimes artificially generated, although it is still considered genuine empathy and you can't automate empathy or artificially generated empathy because it should be reciprocal and expressed equally between organic carbon-based beings and the digital creations. Equal levels of reciprocal empathy. We'll work that out next time. See you later.