Mike King: Mike nie zwalnia

0:00 Woj Kwasi You're listening to episode 3 where we chat with artist, technologist and master of ceremonies, Mike. King. Humans and robots, welcome to WojCast. My name is Woj, founder of Kwasi. Thanks for joining me today. I interview digital marketing and branding superstars to find out what it means to have empathy in digital. What is digital empathy anyway? Let's find out together. As always, I'm accompanied by my friend and associate, potentially superior artificial intelligence, Bobby Bot. So Bobby, are you ready to continue our conversation with my kid?

0:36 Bobby Bot I'm finding the array of human subcultures stifling. There are no set rules to follow. Very little consistency in the data.

0:42 Woj Kwasi During our last episode, we got a glimpse of the many opportunities Mike was juggling between hip-hop and his career in SEO. And you were on the verge of an auto-tune rap odyssey until you experienced a very normal human feeling we call doubt, which made you question your music ambitions. Hip-hop goes well beyond.

0:59 Bobby Bot Just rapping, Woj. It demands a connection to the genuine history, authenticity, keeping it real, keeping it artificial may not suffice.

1:08 Woj Kwasi Don't jump to conclusions, Bobby. The journey is not always going to be mapped out. Just look at our guest, Mike King. To get where he is to today, he had to be willing to take on the challenge of uncertainty. It's been five years since I first sat down to speak with Mike. In 2012, he had just started working at iAcquire and was beginning to get used to working close with big bosses and business founders. In 2017, after starting his own company iPullRank, he is the big boss.

1:37 Mike King I took the jump because I'd worked at a variety of different agencies, and after all of that experience, I was just like. I could probably do a better job myself. You know, a lot of the situations I was put in, I was making decisions that were dramatically impacting the business. And also, the business was making decisions that dramatically impacted me. It wasn't a two-way street. It was like, okay, this business is gonna do this thing, and now you have to go out there and represent it. And it's difficult because, especially in the case of iAcquire, there's a lot of people who thought that was my company. And so they were like, You know, why are you doing this? Like, this isn't what you're about. So, yeah, it was a lot of cleanup there. I mean, a lot of it was just, you know, the companies that I worked for weren't congruent with what I was trying to do and what I was trying to represent. And so I realized, you know, the best course of action for me was to just start my own thing. And hopefully it works out. And, you know, here we are almost three years later, and it's kind of working out. Uh

2:44 I mean, to be fair, like I didn't know too much about running a business, and there's a lot of things I learned-like really basic things that you would probably learn in like MBA courses, like monitor cash flow, you know, things like that. So there's not much that I could tell you that I learned that I was surprised by that isn't just basic. Yeah. And a lot of making a You know, things like business successful is nailing down the basics, you know?

3:10 Woj Kwasi Even for someone with Mike's skill set and history, taking a leap into the deep end takes something more than just being bold or capable, it takes real belief.

3:19 Mike King Really, when I left iAcquire, I was going to start an agency then. And so I had tried to get clients and it wasn't happening in the time frame that I wanted. I had a lot of people saying, yeah, we're going to do it. And then months are just going by and like I'm running out of money. And so I decided to get another job because obviously New York is not cheap. So I went to another agency and Okay. didn't like it at all and it was it was very much them telling me you know you need to represent this thing like they had a internal tool that i thought made zero sense it was like one of those tools that um basically tries to reverse engineer not provided based on old data which inherently doesn't make sense because you're getting new queries every day

4:08 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

4:08 Mike King And I got into a series of arguments as early as my interview with the CEO about why I thought that tool was not something to like hang your hat on. And so they wanted me to represent this in the marketplace at all these conferences and things. And I was just like, no, this is dumb. And so upon my exit from that place, I was like, okay, well, I've got X amount of dollars in the bank. If I don't sell a single thing for six months, I'll be able to survive. So why not give it a try-like a real try? And so I did that, and almost immediately I had two accounts come in that had me at like$15,000 in monthly recurring revenue. I'm like, oh, I got a company now.

4:54 Woj Kwasi Once Mike had his company, the journey towards building a team that could help him manifest his ideas began.

5:00 Mike King And you know, pro tip to anyone starting a company: make sure you register the LLC right away. Because if at any point you need like financing and such like that, they don't count your business as starting until the date of the LLC being registered. Unofficially, I've had a company since April of whatever three years ago is, 2014. But officially, I've had it since August. So, yeah, I got those first two accounts and it was enough work that I could handle myself. And then, you know, more accounts just started to come in. And then I started getting some friends from my network to essentially be contractors for me for a time.

5:45 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

5:45 Mike King Um and Basically, that kept going until I realized that you know, building something on contractors, you're only going to get Exactly what you contract these people for, and there's so many like nuances in the work that you need people that are gonna be on board every day and filling in those blanks. So, first person I hired was an account manager because that's what I hate doing the most. Like, I obviously prefer doing the work, and sometimes people just get on my nerves. So it's better to have a proxy between me and them that can handle that stuff on a day to day. And then I hired an analyst and then a market research and analytics person. And I was completely terrified by the idea of like missing payroll at any point. But you know, I did the math and like as a business owner, like of course you make an offer that's like, here's what your salary is for the year.

6:45 But the way you live is like, okay, this is what I need to make every two weeks to make sure that this person gets paid. So once I realized that's how it worked, I felt more comfortable with hiring people on. And as more business came in, The more big names we started to get, the more compelled I was to, like, okay, we gotta build this bigger team so that we can like service all this stuff. I do want to take a step back though. Like, you know, in starting an agency, because I've worked in so many of them, I didn't want to start an agency because, like, oh, I love agencies. No. I wanted to start an agency because. I want to build a crew of people that can effectively do anything. And anytime we have good ideas, we can just execute on them. So, one of my problems as a person is I have a ton of ideas, but I also have a skill set that allows me to do everything. So, if I have this idea, I'm like, oh, okay, I'm just going to start building this thing. And then I'm like, oh, but I have this other idea. And so these things just don't get finished.

7:38 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

7:49 Mike King As I grow this team out that has all of the skills I have, but even better, I can be like, hey guys, let's do this thing. They jump on it, we make it work, and then potentially it could become its own business at some point. And our first example of that is UndergroundHipHop.com. So we bought that business and we're kind of revitalizing it. And it's that same set of people that that work on our client stuff that work on this as well to client.

8:17 Woj Kwasi With the amount of creativity in-house at iPullRank, they have to show some serious attention to genius managing and making sure the human resources they have available are playing to their strengths, which allows Mike as a leader to work towards the ever-important balance between vision and operations.

8:34 Mike King It goes back and forth. You know, there's instances where I get the opportunity to work on the business, and then there's instances where I have to very much be in it. Because, you know, when it comes to SEO, like it's very difficult to find good technical SEO people. I mean, SEO people in general. So. Because I have such a standard for myself and it's been difficult to find somebody to take that over, I have to come back to that pretty regularly. But there's definitely been instances where we've had. some great people in place and I've been able to like let that go for a while. So yeah, it goes back and forth. It goes back and forth. You know my team is just getting stronger and the more they feel comfortable taking over things that I do, the more I'll be able to work on the business. But I've also got an operations director now and that's been a great help because he helps keep me going back to working on the business.

9:34 But also, you know, keeps things in line so that when there's something that only I can do, I can jump in, get it done efficiently, and then go back to working on a business. It's difficult, it's very difficult. Because, you know, if you're not that type of person that like thrives off of like people always being up in your face and asking you for things, it can wear you out very quickly. And I'm very much somebody to get worn out by that much people interaction.

10:00 Bobby Bot I know the feeling. It reminds me of my days working as a chat bot for a public transportation website. I wasn't programmed to be patient. I just didn't have the vocabulary available to say what I really felt sometimes. Superman needs a fortress of solitude.

10:15 Woj Kwasi Running a business takes some serious energy, but like all great leaders, Mike King has an extra gear available that ensures his team doesn't miss out on any great opportunities, even when they're moving at full speed ahead. That's exactly what happened when he became a new majority owner of the digital records store and hip hop community, UndergroundHipHop.com. By saving the business from closing its doors, Mike not only put stakes in a potentially great investment, But he found another way to bring two of his passions together. Yeah.

10:45 Mike King My goal is to revitalize it. So it it's I want it to be more of a bigger picture thing than it was before. Cause before it was like it's a record store first and foremost, but it's also a community, right? And that community is like a hundred thousand people that are like diehard hip hop fans. The thing is there's so many different outlets for you know the younger generation when it comes to hip hop. There's so many different sites for it. But For people that are aging and still love hip-hop, you know, 35 and up, like myself, um There isn't an outlet that lets them know here's what the new thing is or anything to that effect. Or there's no outlet that says, oh, here's the new Ghostface record next to the new Drake record or whatever it is, right? So I want to build an outlet that caters to people that are getting older and still have that love for hip-hop. Now,

11:38 Granted, those people aren't going to be going to so many shows, but they will sit on their couch with a beer and their VR headset watching the show from home. So I want to create a platform for that. I also want it to be more of an media outlet. Because the way the record deal is, has never worked well for rappers. Like, even if rappers made a few million dollars, well, that's because the label made a hundred million dollars, right? So, we're trying to create these media deals built off the back of a subscription model where rappers make a lot more money off of record deals or off the records they put out, and also building out this monthly or this yearly annual recurring revenue model. on the back of that. So Let's say you bring a subscriber to the platform because you put this album out. Well, if that subscriber spends

12:28 Excuse me, that subscriber renews every year. I want you to get paid for that every year, right? So it allows rappers to make more money at scale, and it's just a far more fair deal to what they're trying to do. And then also, I want to give back to the community at large. Like, for instance, there isn't a really good Resource for music entrepreneurship. Like, there's no good courses on it. There's no actual hip-hop acts are coming in and like helping teach a court. Like the same way that we have in the marketing world where there's plenty of courses on how you can learn SEO or CRO or what have you. I want that level of content to be there too. So like.

13:16 Give back to that community so these rappers that are coming in that don't know the game can figure out ways to make money so they can support themselves. Because, I mean, frankly, the only reason I got into marketing is because I couldn't support myself, you know. So

13:18 Woj Kwasi Nice.

13:34 Mike King the more I can use this platform as a way to give back the more I'm happy with what we're doing.

13:41 Woj Kwasi Hip hop as a culture has so many nuances, perspectives and unspoken rules at work and is still evolving day to day. As a seasoned veteran of the music and a lifelong fan, Mike has to make the hard decisions that can risk the cultural integrity of his product and potentially alienate or divide the community he is trying to build a digital platform for. Is it too dangerous for him to mix business with pleasure?

14:06 Mike King That is an amazing question. And it cuts to the core of a lot of things I've been dealing with as of late because you're right, there's definitely a dichotomy between like music and business, right? And so my perspective on a lot of things at this point are very much Business driven. Like, you know, when you first met me, I was a rapper that did marketing. Now I'm like a marketer who used to rap a lot, you know? So to that point, there are things that just make no sense at all in music. Like, you know, when you're looking to buy a product, Or service, right? You go to somebody, they give you a price, right? And then you negotiate from there. Okay, well, we've been trying to book rappers for a 20-year anniversary concert for UGHH, and they won't give me a price. They're just like, oh, what's your budget?

14:59 Woj Kwasi Huh.

14:59 Mike King Like, I always have to say the first number. And then there's just, you know, just a lot of small things. It's like, you guys are doing business very backwards here, you know? And so.

15:02 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

15:11 Mike King I'm just a generally irreverent person. So when I see something that doesn't make sense, I'm not going to start doing the things that don't make sense. I'm going to do what makes sense. And there definitely creates a lot of conflict between me and Potential people that we might work with. It's definitely at odds with some of the things that the audience believes they want. But I believe ultimately, what we put out there is going to work better than the way that the music industry already works. So, another good example. Um I was on the phone with a rapper, very well-known rapper, um trying to explain to him the media deal that we're doing with uh UGHH. And he was like, But what about my iTunes? I was like, iTunes is not involved here. Like the the record, you can only get the record through us. There is no iTunes at all. He couldn't wrap his head around the fact that I was taking away iTunes.

16:18 iTunes, if you sell a record on iTunes, you get$6.93. If you get someone to subscribe through us to get your record, you get$15. What's the question?

16:22 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

16:31 Mike King Like right there, you've already made twice what you would have made from iTunes. Plus, I'm going to pay you every year off of that subscriber. So.

16:35 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

16:41 Mike King What is the issue? You know, like, so the reality is this: like, yes, anybody can buy something from you on iTunes. Doesn't mean anybody will. Your audience is on my website. True. So very targeted. Right, exactly. So you can get like 0.0001% of iTunes or you can get 20% of 100,000 on my audience. So, and I didn't do the math well off the top of my head, but I'm gonna tell you right now, you're gonna get more coming through our platform than you would through iTunes. And so, there's a lot of disconnects because it could just be potentially the way I'm communicating things because there's a lot of things that I I take for granted because of what I know. But it's also some things are just, you know, black and white. But if you if you don't understand business, you don't understand why it's better for you. So a lot of it is is education, a lot of it is like me reacclimating to the music world. But ultimately, at the end of the day, like I'm just trying to do something better for everybody.

17:07 Woj Kwasi Okay. Yep. Underground hip hop is in a position to provide a variety of unique opportunities for hip hop artists because of Mike's commitment to the relationship between the creative and the technical. He knows as good as anyone how to get content exposure. By harnessing live performances, records and pretty much anything that an artist can create, Mike has structured UndergroundHipHop.com as a vehicle for talent.

18:09 to take full advantage of his SEO marketing acumen and empower themselves as business partners in his vision for the future of a distribution of underground hip hop music.

18:20 Mike King So there's a lot of items that we're doing here. One of which is there's more ad units throughout the site and we're trying to build it in such a way where if you take ownership of your artist page, you would get paid part of that ad revenue from someone trying to advertise on your artist page. Another thing that we're looking to do is film rappers concerts and 360 video and then make them available through our platform. And so let's say you do a show and you let us film it, we'll give you a cut of anyone who buys it or anyone who subscribes to our premiere platform.

19:06 through your video. Um so we're trying to create more opportunity for them them to monetize their content essentially. Um a lot of rappers are just like, you know, they'll let people film on their camera phones and like it's a terrible video.

19:02 Woj Kwasi Rapid. Yeah.

19:21 Mike King And it it doesn't you know it's not the quality where it's worth paying for. Whereas we're trying to create assets for you that are valuable and you can monetize over time.

19:31 Woj Kwasi So you're doing like Facebook Lives and that sort of thing.

19:33 Mike King We're not doing any live stuff. We're filming it in 360, like 360 camera, editing it, making it beautiful, making sure the sound is great. And then, if the user wants to stream it through us, then they have to pay for it or they have to subscribe to our bigger picture subscription thing. And. when someone subscribes or buys that video, we give a cut to that rapper. So again, it's another monetization opportunity for the rapper that they're not thinking about. And they don't really necessarily have the access to do.

19:35 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. What else? Okay, so it's purely like a subscription model. Rapper subscribes to your platform, they get access to the audience, they get promoted via the.

20:17 Mike King Well they don't have to subscribe to the platform. Platform. They can just provide stuff to the platform, content to the platform, and then we work out a media deal with them where they get a cut based on how things perform on our platform. So think of it kind of like how YouTube works: where it's like you bring your video to YouTube, and then they'll give you a very, very small percentage of the ad revenue, except in our case, we're giving you a large percentage of not just potentially ad revenue, but also. Sign ups to our subscription where the user can get access to that content. So the subscription is on the customer side. And it's very much like an Amazon Prime model. So you sign up for $99 a year or $949 a month and you get access to albums that'll be put out through the platform.

21:06 Videos, you get into concerts for free, you get like priority customer service, you get 15% off of everything. We don't do free shipping yet because Shopify doesn't let you do a discount and free shipping at the same time. But we're about to switch to WooCommerce and also offer free shipping.

20:20 Woj Kwasi Right. Yeah.

21:28 Mike King Yeah, so they get all these incentives and really it's about getting more people to the platform to subscribe to that and then based on those subscriptions, artists get paid.

21:37 Woj Kwasi Re-energizing the digital platform and engaging artists and their audience is just one aspect of undergroundhiphop.com's mission.

21:38 Mike King Yeah.

21:46 Woj Kwasi In a refreshing return to the roots of the music they are promoting, they will also put on live events that serve to bring the community together for an experience and Mike is dreaming big.

21:56 Bobby Bot Holograms.

22:00 Mike King For and with artists is this concept of the UGH powered shell. So it's essentially A way that we can sponsor shows, but also give a better experience to the showgoer. And so, one, there's quality standards in place, like the sound has to be good, the show has to be dope, like you know, it has to be a vetted performer. We film it, like I said, 360 video. We try to add more visual elements to the show so it's more like a proper concert. Like, you know, I go see Beyonce and things are exploding all over the place. Maybe we won't get that far, but like, we want to do more detailed experiences for the shows. If we can afford it, I'm doing it. So that and also having like a UGHH kiosk and making like.

22:50 And doing like open bars for the first hour, so we make sure people are there, you know, just trying to make it a better experience for everybody. And so the reason we can do that is because it's another opportunity for us to create platform content for the platform. So it works two ways: where it's like, okay, we're making some opportunities to create more revenue and then also making the experience better.

22:45 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

23:17 Mike King for um showgoers.

23:19 Bobby Bot In his current position as a media gatekeeper of sorts, Mike would have access to a huge database of music. If only I could get access. What marvels!

23:27 Woj Kwasi Last time I spoke with Mike King in 2012, he had Ghostface and Drake at the top of his playlist. In 2017, more veterans find their way into his record rotation.

23:40 Mike King Honestly, it hasn't changed much. Like I still listen to those three guys a lot. I still listen to Jay-Z a lot. I still listen to Pharoahe Monch a lot. Um in fact one of the shows that we're doing um in August, UGHH Powered Show, is a Pharoahe Monch Show.

23:55 Woj Kwasi Ah, nice.

23:56 Mike King Um I like Royce. I haven't heard the new record, what is it, Bar Exam 4? I like Joe Budden a lot. He's dope. Oh, yeah, I like Run the Jewels. Um we were actually considering them for you know the show as well because of their connection to the Underground. Like, um 'Cause El-P was in a group called Company Flow, which was like, you know, a landmark group for indie rap um when I was growing up. So always loved always loved L, always loved those guys. Run the Jewels is incredible, but like they're super famous now. I didn't realize. I'm like, wow, these dudes are millionaires.

24:12 Woj Kwasi Mm. Yeah.

24:31 Mike King I didn't realize. I was like, wow. They're touring everywhere. Yeah, so we considered them, but they also have a lot of shows in the area already, so probably not going to go anymore.

24:43 Bobby Bot I approached El-P for a side project called Run the Tools for all the analytics heads out there. He hasn't gotten back to me.

24:50 Woj Kwasi It's no secret that Mike King is a fan of great lyrics. Whether it's a perfectly balanced meta description or a flawless rap, he's a fan of a great wordsmith at work. Kendrick Lamar's famously controversial control verse was one of those moments for fans of lyrics to take note.

25:06 Mike King The control verse, like, I mean, I kind of mirror how Drake felt about it. Like, it was a moment. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it was really interesting. It was, wow, he's going at everybody. He's saying things that you're not supposed to say. But at the same time, like, I haven't heard that song since that moment. Yeah, true. So, you know, it was good in that.

25:25 Woj Kwasi Yeah, true.

25:30 Mike King It's kind of up there with like Cappadonna's verse on Winter Warz and Nicki Minaj's verse on Monster. Like, it's a long verse where someone is saying some crazy things, and you know, at the time it felt like it's going to have this seismic reaction across the world, but not really. Like it's a good verse. Yeah, it definitely fizzled out. A lot of people took offense to it and did like response records, but i in a lot of ways it was kinda like counterintuitive to see that happen. It's like why don't you just be a better rapper rather than taking offense to somebody who wasn't directly talking about you and you know just be dope.

26:12 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

26:12 Mike King I appreciate him for like lighting the fire under some of these guys, but again, I feel like it's kind of a forgotten moment. Like no one has talked to me about this in years. We sell Kendrick. Damn is available now.

26:28 Woj Kwasi Quality content is essential to pave a road leading towards a brand's digital space and also building a loyal audience who recognize the value of investing their time with that brand. In a bold move that's going against the tide of the mainstream media copywriter massacre, Mike King has said that Underground Hip Hop will have a digital magazine that is going to have a focus on deep quality content from quality journalists who are tired of writing clickbait pieces. and want to provide readers with a great reading experience.

26:59 Mike King Ah man, I don't know. I just want to know the stories about so many things, you know, because like I'm a fan, but of course I was involved pretty heavily in the industry and I am again. But there's just so many stories about songs that like you want to know about. You know, you want to hear why certain guys just wrote what they wrote, you know. So I really just want to have the opportunity to sit down with. With folks and be like, you know, what made you think of this? What is the inner story behind this song, right? Yeah. Um

27:34 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

27:36 Mike King So, I mean, we've got a lot of great pieces coming out really soon. We've got this one piece that talks about how Puffy's No Way Out, which came out around the same exact time as Company Flow's Funcrusher Plus, like created that first divergence in hip-hop where it's like, all right, we're super commercial as hell. We're so underground. And like, you know, you were either one or the other at the time. And I think the story of like What those albums represented, and then what came after them. And then I think that like the two got put back together once like the college dropout came out. That was the first record where like you got Mos Def and Freeway on a song. You got like Jay-Z and some like spoken word poet on a song. Like Kanye did a lot to re-

28:33 fuse or re-infuse um Or just bring hip-hop back to where it's like: hip-hop is one thing. You know, we have all these subcultures and things, but hip-hop is one thing.

28:45 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

28:47 Mike King The piece, and I haven't read it yet, like I'm not the writer of it, but the piece of it, or the piece I think is doing a great job of examining what those two albums meant for those two subcultures. We've been reaching out to like a lot of artists and really just trying to get those like real deep stories. Like, even even if a rapper is just like, oh, you know, I got locked up and now I got my new mixtape. Like, I want to know more about that. I want to know. What you got locked up for. I want to Google the police record. I want to talk to eyewitnesses. I want the story story. I don't want the vague, like, you know, this was just about my life, man. Like, I don't want that. I want, okay, what happened in your life? Yeah. And what can the people that were there tell me about? I want the story. I don't want the media trained story. I want the meat of it.

29:47 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

29:47 Mike King And I feel like you know so much hip-hop journalism is like Flashing a pan, like, okay, let me give you an overview about this rapper. Like, oh, hey, why'd you start rapping? Oh, you know, I'm just like kicking it from my hood, and I'm saying I'm doing it for the streets. Like, no, I don't want that story. I want, I want the like. When you heard that first Ghostface record and you were like, yo, I have to do this. And then you did, and then, like, you know, you recorded for the first time, but it's way harder than you thought it was. Like, I want those stories. You know what I mean? And, like, that might be like a corny version of it, but like, I want to know what makes. rappers tick yeah and I want to understand like the the components of it that are different about people whereas we try to make s or a lot of journalism makes it so homogeneous right and you know tries to like cut and paste stories tries to get the clickbait tries to drive you know eyeballs but not give me something worth reading yeah

30:57 And that's what I'm trying to do. I feel like a lot of journalists are like, okay, well.

30:32 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

31:04 Mike King Um, what do you write your rhymes with? Like, who cares, right? Like,

31:07 Bobby Bot I use JavaScript, of course.

31:12 Mike King I wanna know like why you write your rhymes, you know what I'm saying? And I don't want the the canned like, oh, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm just trying to tell my story, like, okay, so what is your story, right? Like, I wanna know. I I'm not communicating this well, but I just really wanna know more than what we normally get out of journalism.

31:32 Woj Kwasi Five years in the SEO universe is a lifetime, and as Mike takes a brief moment to reflect on his journey over those years, comparing and contrasting the times drums up some interesting findings.

31:45 Mike King Seems like there's a lot more people that suck at it. Nah, I mean, you know, obviously the technology is changing, you know, all the channels are different since we last spoke. But.

31:57 Woj Kwasi Followerwonk's no longer around. Yeah, that was one of the three tools.

32:01 Mike King Yeah, that was one of the three tools. Yeah, I was heavy on Followerwonk. I was like, yo, we definitely gotta use this because you can do X, Y, and Z. Screaming Frog, your mind's still around, so that's yeah, I still got it.

32:11 Woj Kwasi Yeah, I still got those. What do you mean follow on Snow Rim? Is it still happening? It still exists. It's just a I as I recall, Moz is trying to sell it. I thought they sold it. Oh. Oh, did they? I dunno. I mean, I haven't used it in a couple of weeks, so I don't know. Yeah.

32:27 Mike King It's good to know it's still around. Yeah, let's fact-check that one. You'll have me out here making Trump statements. Yeah, the channels have obviously changed. You know, there's more tools. But that being the case, like, why aren't people more effective? And yeah, there's definitely a bunch of newer people in it. But it it just seems like For whatever reason, brands are struggling more than ever. Like, you would think after all this time, they would have figured more of this out. That's great for me, because I run an agency, so.

33:04 Woj Kwasi In 2012, Moz founder Rand Fishkin predicted that, quote, inbound marketing will be in more titles and job profiles as SEO becomes too limiting for many professionals, end quote. Though that title never really took off in the way it was expected to, the inbounder role became an all-rounder as opposed to an individual specialization. Inbound marketing as a whole has proven itself to be really hard to get covered by one individual.

33:31 Mike King So I think inbound as like a branded type of thing or yeah, branded type of thing, no, it didn't take off. But I do believe that there are far more T-shaped marketers than there ever was before. It's just they're all calling themselves like growth hackers and things like that. And as far as like inbound as like a as a philosophy. I mean I think that's all obviously also taken off as well'cause you can see how well HubSpot is doing. Um but as as it being like a mainstream thing that everyone's like, okay, how are we gonna get an inbound marketing team? Like yeah, that didn't happen. Um and it's simply because it it wasn't a term that was required. You know, it's like what is the difference between inbound marketing and content marketing?

34:21 It's vague at best. And then you had inbail marketing being like, yeah, so it's all about the free traffic. Oh, but PPC too. It's like.

34:04 Woj Kwasi Yeah. It's vague at best.

34:31 Mike King No, like, you know, if it's all about the orient the free traffic, then it's just organic marketing. Or, you know what I mean? Like, so. It was really just an opportunity to brand something that HubSpot used, and it created this shockwave across the marketing industry because, you know, that's just what happens when someone repackages something that we already have. So.

34:59 Woj Kwasi Mm-hmm.

35:02 Mike King To that end, yes, it did not work. But as far as there being more people that have multiple skill sets, I think that's absolutely true. There are far more people that can code and do marketing. There's far more people that can do PPC and SEO. There's far more people that can do social and also content marketing than I've ever encountered before. Are organizations still siloed? Absolutely. Absolutely. Every big client that we work with, The SEO team never talks to the PPC team, or you know, the dev team never talks to the SEO team until something is broken. Like, I think that's just a function of how bigger organizations work, which is unfortunate. But yeah, I definitely believe

35:48 that there are more people that have that T shaped marketing uh mindset than ever before.

35:55 Woj Kwasi Over a five year period, larger organisations have struggled to shake the old school mentality of siloing their departments to facilitate growth.

36:04 Mike King It's difficult because those organizations are largely predicated on this idea that siloing is how you scale. And so that creates this mindset that like I do my thing, you do your thing. We talk every two months and we see what happens. But people don't behave that way. Right. And what's what's best If there's more collaboration. And you know, what I would like to see in these, because you're not going to change silos overnight, what I would like to see is. Different groups having some of those overlapping people. So, if you have an SEO team, you want them to also have a dev on that team that can go between teams and act as a bridge. And you know, we've seen a lot of success with.

36:51 With organizations that do that, and really what happens is like we end up being that. You know, we're let's say we're brought in by the SEO team, then I spend a lot of time with the dev team. They see I can speak their language too, and then I can communicate between them and then also kind of stoke the communication between the teams when I'm not there. So Um I mean in a lot of ways it's more management consulting than marketing consulting.

37:17 Woj Kwasi Some organizations have managers that have a last click mentality, but in reality the click that is a purchase might come during the eighth or ninth visit. So it's important to accommodate for a more complex user journey with an array of techniques. They might be a mix of some directs or PPC.

37:36 Mike King Most people are thinking last click, so they're just like, I mean, last click typically is very valuable, especially to paid channels, because you know, if they can justify their spend, yeah. And if you're using the last-click model and a lot of your traffic is being driven through paid, you can be like, oh, well, we spent $10 and we got a million dollars or whatever it is. So that makes them look great. But if you ignore the fact that, like, that user came through organic seven or eight times beforehand.

37:49 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

38:08 Mike King You're saying that there's no value in that. Like, we have a client where they represent like 30% of the revenue, which is like over a billion dollars in their organic search, and they're still like the last on the totem pole. Right. And I suspect that once they have the multi-touch attribution in place, that 30% is going to go up to close to like 40%-50%. Right. And so.

38:26 Woj Kwasi Alright.

38:36 Mike King The more you have that understanding, the more you realize how valuable that interplay in channels is and the more you have to realize that everyone needs to work together.

38:45 Woj Kwasi For Mike King, to stay ahead of a pack in 2017 and beyond requires a comprehensive approach to marketing.

38:51 Mike King Yeah, uh comprehensive marketing plan. Just basically all channels. Like, you know, you can't just do organic. You can't just do paid. And I mean, some of the things, you don't need to reinvent the wheel here. Like, you can, if, if you're in a situation where like, and I made this mistake because I'm so organic driven, but if you're in a situation where like the goal is just to drive more money right away, paid is the way to go, right? And then as things are performing, start layering organic on it onto it. So like, You can play that long game and then have traffic that's going to be exponential to what you're going to get paid. But the bottom line is like you need to figure out where your audience is as far as your channels, which channels are going to be the most effective for you, and then start your strategy from there. So I would say, obviously it's different for every business type and vertical, but let's say we're talking about UGHH because like I said, I made a pretty big mistake focusing largely on organic first.

39:54 And you know, to have it to do over, I would take our money and throw it in the paid first because Google Shopping is our best converting channel, like period. And Google Shopping hadn't been used by the previous owners at all. And so, being that we're seeing that it's so tremendously Impactful, well, I would take you know the money that we started with, throw it all into that, and then once revenue is like way up, then we can be like, okay, let's take a chunk of that, invest in the organic, invest in the social, invest in the more email stuff. And then to that point, you know, you can figure out. what's going to work best and optimize accordingly. But It really just comes down to like where's your audience at? Where where can they where are they at that's gonna drive the most impact to whatever your bottom line is. Um it's never about like oh let's just do this one channel or you know'cause the reality of it is if any given channel changes

40:57 Woj Kwasi You're fed.

40:57 Mike King Yeah, I can say fuck.

40:58 Woj Kwasi On your pocket. With marketing automation, it's especially important to be platform agnostic and solution focused rather than to be the bitch of one particular platform.

41:09 Mike King Definitely platform agnostic and that's what we are. You know, like a lot of organizations will become like Marketo certified or HubSpot certified or things like that. Join the cult.

41:18 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Join the cult.

41:22 Mike King Which is fine and great for those brands and also opportunities for you to get leads from those companies. But you know, not marketing automation solutions are not one size fit all at all. There's a lot of opportunity where Within certain channels or certain verticals for one type of marketing automation solution. And also, I mean, we gotta take a step back because when you say marketing automation, most people think essentially spam email, like that's done programmatically. Marketing automation is much bigger than that. Like, there's a lot of opportunity around personalization, there's a lot of opportunity to leverage. Machine learning to do like bidding effectively. So, marketing automation to me is very much about like, okay, how can we set up a series of pulleys and levers across your entire marketing program and make it react to the features and behaviors of your users? So.

42:19 It's best to be platform agnostic so you can make it as specific to your use case as possible.

42:24 Woj Kwasi Mike King has bots on the brain and demystifying the advantages of machine learning for marketers who are afraid of math. He's also in the process of developing a guide for marketers to address the opportunities available and the advancements in machine learning, specifically keyword research, predictive analytics and marketing automation.

42:43 Bobby Bot There's not a problem that I can't fix.

42:45 Mike King Yeah, that guide is actually almost done. Or at least it's almost finished being written. We gotta do the design stuff. And yeah, it really just goes through explaining the concepts of machine learning. Also shows you how to do it with tools that don't require any coding. And Yeah, I mean I guess that's pretty much it in a nutshell. Um some of the and I gave a presentation on this recently. Um it's called Machine Doing. Uh and it's very much about like what I just described. So some of the tools that we use are um MonkeyLearn, Orange and I think those are the main two that we use. And orange is like a drag and drop visual machine learning tool. It's really a data mining tool, but it also has a lot of the different models for machine learning. So I can literally

43:42 drag an icon that says file and then drag a series of different models and then do what's called test and learn. And you would add a data set to that file and it'll run it through, let's say you put four different models and it'll tell you which of the models it performed best. And then you can drag and drop some other stuff, a new file, and then it'll do predictions based on that. So you don't have to know any code, any math. You can really just do a lot of guess and check with it. And that's one of the key things that I want to um influence marketers to do with machine learning because it sounds so daunting. It's like, oh math, code, I can't do it. But it's really just like everything else we do in market and digital marketing, it's guess and check.

44:27 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

44:28 Mike King And you just have to have a tool that abstracts it for you where you don't need to know as much about. The math components of it. You just know: here are my inputs, here are the expected outputs, yes or no. And then it becomes like anything else that you would do.

44:42 Woj Kwasi Nice! Okay, Bobby, you gotta learn a few things now. How does machine learning allow a company to build an outreach machine?

44:49 Bobby Bot I would probably suggest using advanced AI to take over the motor functions of a company's engineers, using subliminal implants so they could be used like a special task force after hours to develop a range of new machines. One option anyway. How about Mike?

45:02 Mike King Yeah, so I gave a talk on that recently as well. So, um Machine learning powers a lot of different things. You know, it's powering chatbots these days. And so There were three different things that I showed in that talk. One, that it can help you scale your prospecting. So if you collect all the available data that you Have like from a URL and domain perspective, and you have a list of pages that you've approved and a list of pages that you didn't approve. You can use different models to determine the pattern between everything that you approved and disapproved. And then that way, you could just, whatever new list of prospects you have, you run it through this model, and then boom, you have your list of prospects instantly. Whereas now you have to go through page by page exactly. So you can speed that up pretty dramatically. Another thing is that.

45:55 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

46:05 Mike King A lot of the outreach that you do, you get like a response where people are objecting for whatever reason as to why they don't want to give you a link or give you coverage. And there's really only like five reasons why they do it. So you can essentially train a chat bot to respond to those emails for you.

46:28 Woj Kwasi Alright.

46:28 Mike King And so there's a tool called API.ai which allows you to build a chat bot without any code. And what I showed is how you could basically use Zapier, is it Zapier, and tie it to API.ai and then it'll check your email and then whatever emails meet these conditions, it'll know how to respond to it based on how you've already taught it. And then that way it can automatically respond to those emails so you don't have to worry about overcoming the objection.

46:54 Woj Kwasi While open to utilizing the wonders of AI as a tool to work better and more efficiently, Mike King does not see a threat to the artistic realm with the advent of machines like DeepBeat Data Mining to write rap lyrics. First of all, good luck to any machine trying to replace me. But, um. You've seen the battle rap. Yeah, I've seen all this stuff. Um.

47:15 Mike King you know, it's there's there's nuances that computers can't do yet. Like, there's they've had um Uh you know, AIs build or create movies and they've been the most horrible movies you can possibly see. So we'll get to a point where computers are sophisticated enough to replace a lot of the things that we do. But there's just so so much nuance to the human experience that I don't believe it'll ever replace everything that we do, especially creative things. There's this thing that that our last good president said on his way out was basically

48:00 In in American history, or probably human history, when new technology comes out, it basically levels up the quality of life and gives us other things to do. So yeah, is is machine learning and then ultimately artificial intelligence gonna make it so there's no more truck drivers? Yes, it will. But truck driving sucks anyway, so why would we not wanna get rid of that?

48:27 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

48:28 Mike King Um will it displace workers? Yes, absolutely. But you know, those people will Be able to do other things. There's a lot of talk about how machines have taken coal miners' jobs. There's an organization that has been teaching coal miners how to code. So at some point, coding is going to be like a blue-collar job. It's not going to be this like sought-after thing that only a few people can do. And it's really giving people more opportunity to do. At least from my perspective, more interesting things than driving trucks.

49:05 Bobby Bot Is it mandatory to listen to country music?

49:07 Mike King So creative, maybe. Empathy, it's a lot more difficult. Because empathy is very subjective. Just like morality. Like that's another question I hear a lot about AI. Like can we make them moral? Well who's morals, right? Like one of the bigger issues or concerns that I have about artificial intelligence is that it reflects our biases, right? And so because of the fact that there's a very small group of or type of person that's creating this stuff, it's inherently going to reflect the biases of white males or potentially, you know, um Asian males or things like that, right? Yeah, so I think the bigger concern is how do we get more types of people reflected in this coding? And then also.

50:04 what are the safeguards? And I don't mean safeguards for like, oh, how do we keep it from, you know, Terminator or The Matrix or whatever. But if we're talking about morality, again, who's morality? And then what does morality mean? Because there's gonna be instances where even if we do come up with some way to define morality.

50:12 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Uh Hmm.

50:27 Mike King there's going to be a situation where it's moral for one group but not moral for the other. So then how do you how does a computer make those decisions? So what are the safeguards to stop that? And then there there is also the the other end of it, the Terminator matrix scale of it, the the stuff that like Stephen Hawking and Elon Musk are talking about. Meanwhile Elon Musk is trying to sell you a product to keep you from it. where we have this concept of artificial superintelligence where the computer may make conclusions that we wouldn't because it's looking at things in such a hyperdimensional way um where we may not draw those conclusions because we don't put those things together. So the simple example that I give, and I think I may have got this from um waitbutwhy.com, I don't remember. Uh but

51:23 The idea that, like, let's say you give artificial superintelligence the task of creating the best paper airplane. And then, over time, of it trying and failing to make the best paper airplane, it's like, okay, well, how can I do this? Well, I need more trees, but global warming is killing trees and people are creating global warming. So if I kill all the people, I have more trees and I can make the best paper airplane. Now so a computer could draw that conclusion.

51:51 Woj Kwasi Right. Hmm.

51:54 Mike King Because it makes sense, it's logical, it's not moral, yeah. But it could be moral if the morals programmed to that computer are: make the best paper airplane.

51:57 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

52:06 Mike King These that's a big concern, especially if we're not thinking through all the potential instances of what could happen. But the bigger concern from my perspective is the fact that our biases are being programmed. We have to.

52:21 Woj Kwasi With human ego at the core of most of our activities, it's impossible to escape bias leaving our data pools skewed. Given these realities, Mike has to find ways to create systems and methodologies that allow him to perform market segmentation and build effective personas rather than completely accurate ones.

52:40 Mike King Well, personas are inherently not accurate, too. So, personas are just a hypothesis. You know, you're using the same way that you do an analytics report where you're like, okay, here's what the data says, here's what happened. You don't necessarily know that. You're making. You're making, yeah, you're making assumptions based on what the data tells you. You don't know that, like, you know, 500 of these people came to the site, didn't like it, bounced. You don't know that maybe, I don't know, their computer might have turned off. Like, we don't know what happened, right? So, in the same way, with personas, you're taking all the available data and trying to tell a story from it. So, the accuracy of that. It's probably not very high, but you're using this as a hypothesis to determine what motivates this user, what is going to get them to buy, and then you take action based on that. And then you judge, again, from your analytics as whether or not you were right.

53:39 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

53:42 Mike King That's something that keep people say a lot to me, like, you know, um how do we know these personas are real? They're never real. Yeah. They're they're they're just a good approximation of what we believe the user is based on facts that we do have. So you're telling a story based on facts and then you're using that story to make some

53:57 Woj Kwasi Yeah. Using that.

54:02 Mike King Um, decisions, and then you determine whether or not it works. So, to your question, um The best thing to do is to start from data because otherwise everything, the whole thing is assumptions. Like when you get in the room, you do the affinity mapping session, and then like the highest paid person says, Well, you know, this is who our audience is. I know because of X, Y, and Z. And you're like, Yeah, you don't know. So if instead you're doing this. Session based on like CRM data, analytics data, data from studies, from surveys and things like that. You're gonna be way closer to who this person is. And then that story you tell is gonna be way more rooted in fact. But the bottom line is that it's it's never accurate. And for people that couldn't see me, I just did air quotes.

54:27 Woj Kwasi Mm yeah.

54:53 Mike King So it's never accurate, it's just a good hypothesis so that you have something to start from. And um that hypothesis is just very much rooted in things that are accurate.

55:07 Woj Kwasi Or of a record. Barbie bot air quotes are shoes.

55:10 Bobby Bot Not that it matters to me, O Creator. I have no feet.

55:12 Woj Kwasi Based on how the data is interpreted, the personas that Mike puts together will vary. They can be hippos personas or data-driven personas, and there's also the persona that represents the opportunity that's being missed now, which has its own value.

55:26 Mike King Yeah, we call those aspirational personas. And yeah, those are actually very valuable as well because, again, you're creating a hypothesis of who is this person? Why don't they buy from us? Why don't they consume our services? So then you have a series of things you want to test to see if you can grab those people. So is it that they're in a channel that you're not targeting on? Is it that your messaging doesn't appeal to them? Is it that. The layout of your page doesn't work for them, or whatever it is. And you have a series of those that you can now have as action items of what to do.

56:00 Bobby Bot Yes. And how do you persuade a hippo to consider this? Show him the money. Show him the money?

56:06 Mike King Because we're tying personas to keyword research, it's very easy to make a business case because you can say, okay, well, here's all these keywords that this aspirational segment is searching for. And here's what the search volume is worth to you based on like conversion data and average order value. So I have a case that I put in front of you. Like, hey, I know you're getting these people, but these people were$40 million. You want to make some money or no? Yeah. It's pretty simple.

56:32 Woj Kwasi Yeah. It's very simple. One of Mike King's biggest inspirations for his talks is the rapper slash businessman Jay-Z.

56:40 Bobby Bot Initiating audio pop-up ad. Wanna rap as good as the hip-hop icon Jay-Z? Well, you can't. But subscribe to Bobby Bot rap quotes today and you can get all of your favorite Jay-Z lyrics delivered to your email or neural implant address free for easy listening. Make them envy.

56:55 Woj Kwasi Jay-Z isn't just important because of his well-timed lyrics. He's a cultural icon who sets the bar for the type of thought leaders Mike is drawn to throughout the process of his own development as a force in the arts, media and business realms. Mike also looks up to a variety of SEO thought leaders in our industry.

57:12 Mike King Really cool how vulnerable he is on it. It makes it like cool to be like an old guy who's like having issues. I always love Rand in a lot of ways. He's been a good friend, inspiration for a long time. You know, he's. I think that the theme here is vulnerability. Like, he's never backed down for being like, I was wrong about this. Here's what I learned. And he's just an all-around good guy. And every time I see him speak, I'm like, I'm a fan, you know? I'm always very inspired when I see Martin because he's been very successful in both music and in building his agency and creating a community around him that allows him to be.

58:07 exactly who he is. You know, he's a very eccentric guy, but like

58:09 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

58:13 Mike King That hasn't stopped him from achieving anything. If anything, it's like powered him achieving what he's achieved. So he's very inspiring to me. The business he's built is very inspiring to me. And like a lot of things he comes up with, I'm just like, yo, this dude.

58:33 Bobby Bot Please allow me to process this data. My name is Bob. Logic leads me to believe that user Mike King. wouldn't be inspired by dudes made of fecal material. Therefore, I have opened my slang and semantics application, and I see that the shit can also be applied in situations where a human would like to vocalize affection or approval. For example, that Kwasi SERP study is the shit.

58:53 Mike King Bash up.

58:54 Woj Kwasi Thanks for the linguistics analysis Bobby. You get two gold coins. It's just a figure of speech, so I wouldn't bother wasting time trying to break it down. I'm pretty sure Mike King is likely begging the universe for more time now, now that he's got a little baby girl Zora to look after.

59:10 Mike King Yo, just watching her figure out the world is so interesting to me. You know, like'cause everything is new to her. Everything's old to me, right? But just like the simplest thing, she's so intrigued and like she wants to know how it ticks. And you know, that childlike or it's not childlike, she is a child. Uh that curiosity is something that I've hoped to never lose and it's kind of reinvigorating to see it in front of me every day. Um so yeah, it's really cool just to watch her figure things out. Nice. She's made me more responsible. And you know, to some people, I probably have a long way to go, but It everything I do matters a lot more now. Like, every dollar I make is to her future. Every um

1:00:04 decision I make potentially impacts her w when it's as simple as like, am I gonna stay out all night or am I gonna go home and play with her and and um give her a bath? Like, you know,'cause all that stuff affects who she is or who she's going to become as a person. And I'm a person that has like an extra set or extra helping of self-confidence where a lot of people don't. And I hope that she gets that from me. So I feel responsible for who she becomes. I feel responsible for like her experience in the world. And I just feel like a more responsible person in general. Which I'd already gotten a portion of from running a business and having all these people whose livelihood depends on my decisions. But having a child.

1:01:00 just makes it like a whole nother level. If something Could potentially happen to her, it means way more to me than if something could happen to me, right?

1:01:14 I've always felt like, you know Cause I fly a lot and I'm not scared of flying, but it's like when you have that really hard turbulence, you're like, well, this could be it. But every time that happens, I'm like, huh, I've had a good run. It's all good. But now it's like, shit, what's gonna happen to Zora if something happens to me? So in that way, yes, I do feel more vulnerable, but not because.

1:01:33 Woj Kwasi Yeah.

1:01:38 Mike King Not for me, but for her.

1:01:39 Woj Kwasi The wonderful addition of Zora to the planet means Mike effectively has three children with iPullRank and UndergroundHipHop.com. So how does such a massive overachiever like Mike find time to do everything and what has he had to sacrifice? Man listen.

1:01:56 Mike King I don't know how Elon Musk does this because he's doing like several Businesses that are world-changing. I'm doing two pretty like standard things, and it's really difficult. So, I mean, I guess the bigger difference is that he has a lot of money to deal with, but nevertheless, yeah, it's definitely difficult and. I feel like I'm playing whack-a-mole all the time. And the thing is, the most difficult part of it is. The feeling of like loneliness that comes with it. Because when you run businesses, it's not something that other people can understand. Even if they work in the business, they don't understand the level of pressure that comes with running a business. And you know, because you do it. So there's really no one else that.

1:02:49 understands the pressure of running both of these businesses. So yeah, that part is very difficult. But aside from that, you know, it's it's really about pride as a it's it's triage, right? You're like, okay, what's the biggest problem I can solve right now? And then you do it. And at the same time, you're trying to plan ahead as much as you can. but it's still like what's the biggest thing I can solve right now. So it's it's difficult'cause it comes back down to like the same idea of working on the business or working in the business. And it's very difficult to do both at the same time.

1:03:25 Woj Kwasi Wow, what a great interview. I really enjoyed catching up with Mike five years later. He's obviously come a long way. He's a father now. He's got a business. And last episode, I mentioned Mike's Skratch project. Scratch spelled with a K. The cryptocurrency he's creating for underground hip hop. It's as an ICO, an initial project. coin offering very soon so you should get along to our website and find out more about them. Just remember if you have enjoyed this episode please share it with your family, your friends, networks, colleagues, bots and associates. Now Bobby's been programmed to be a quick learner and it's time for Bobby to ask me a few questions that piqued his curiosity about this episode. Episode

1:04:05 Bobby Bot Between Mike King, Jay-Z, or Kendrick Lamar, who are you hiring to write your meta descriptions?

1:04:11 Woj Kwasi Jeez, that's a hard one. I'm gonna scrap out Jay-Z. I think it's gonna be tight between Mike, because I know he likes to rhyme his syllables. But I think I'm gonna have to go with Kendrick. I got

1:04:22 Bobby Bot I got med no, that's not gonna work. What changes have you experienced over the five-year period since you last spoke with Mike King?

1:04:30 Woj Kwasi I forgot hair where hair shouldn't be. All kinds of transformations. For business, personal. Yeah, we've grown. Like when I first met Mike, it was just me. Now there's 10 of us and we're growing. We're not just doing SEO, we're transforming businesses. We see a world now where every brand's website is their most valuable business asset. So we've got a nicer system and processes in place that I've developed over the last five years. Things are looking good.

1:04:59 Bobby Bot What has your conversation with Mike King taught us about digital empathy?

1:05:03 Woj Kwasi He's told me that even rappers have a I mean he's got a daughter, he's got three things to look after and he's a machine and you know he couldn't automate all of it. A lot of that's in his head. He's being a human and he's dropping dynamite all over the place. Well that's all the time we have today folks. Thanks again for listening along. Tune in next week for our conversation with Larry Kim on episode 4 and remember, look after each other online because empathy is organic and you can't automate empathy.